r/redditdev • u/FlyingLaserTurtle • May 31 '23
Reddit API API Update: Enterprise Level Tier for Large Scale Applications
tl;dr - As of July 1, we will start enforcing rate limits for a free access tier, available to our current API users. If you are already in contact with our team about commercial compliance with our Data API Terms, look for an email about enterprise pricing this week.
We recently shared updates on our Data API Terms and Developer Terms. These updates help clarify how developers can safely and securely use Reddit’s tools and services, including our APIs and our new-and-improved Developer Platform.
After sharing these terms, we identified several parties in violation, and contacted them so they could make the required changes to become compliant. This includes developers of large-scale applications who have excessive usage, are violating our users’ privacy and content rights, or are using the data for ad-supported or commercial purposes.
For context on excessive usage, here is a chart showing the average monthly overage, compared to the longstanding rate limit in our developer documentation of 60 queries per minute (86,400 per day):
We reached out to the most impactful large scale applications in order to work out terms for access above our default rate limits via an enterprise tier. This week, we are sharing an enterprise-level access tier for large scale applications with the developers we’re already in contact with. The enterprise tier is a privilege that we will extend to select partners based on a number of factors, including value added to redditors and communities, and it will go into effect on July 1.
Rate limits for the free tier
All others will continue to access the Reddit Data API without cost, in accordance with our Developer Terms, at this time. Many of you already know that our stated rate limit, per this documentation, was 60 queries per minute. As of July 1, 2023, we will enforce two different rate limits for the free access tier:
- If you are using OAuth for authentication: 100 queries per minute per OAuth client id
- If you are not using OAuth for authentication: 10 queries per minute
Important note: currently, our rate limit response headers indicate counts by client id/user id combination. These headers will update to reflect this new policy based on client id only on July 1.
To avoid any issues with the operation of mod bots or extensions, it’s important for developers to add Oauth to their bots. If you believe your mod bot needs to exceed these updated rate limits, or will be unable to operate, please reach out here.
If you haven't heard from us, assume that your app will be rate-limited, starting on July 1. If your app requires enterprise access, please contact us here, so that we can better understand your needs and discuss a path forward.
Additional changes
Finally, to ensure that all regulatory requirements are met in the handling of mature content, we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023, except for moderation needs.
If you are curious about academic or research-focused access to the Data API, we’ve shared more details here.
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u/iamthatis May 31 '23
I've long-communicated with Reddit that the API response headers are often incredibly wrong, claiming that 500,000 requests (yes, five hundred thousand) have been used within the first 1 second of a rate limit reset period. Reddit has said they're looking into it but delivered nothing actionable beyond saying if users are in shared university dorms their requests may be pooled together by IP and cause it to be inflated. (University dorms don't hold students requesting half a million requests per second, and even if they did somehow measuring by IP is ludicrous when you have auth tokens to go off of).
How are we able to trust these numbers when Reddit has long neglected making them accurate? I'm one of the largest third-party apps and meticulously calculate my API requests. The average user makes 344 per day, and 80% make under 500 per day.
This post feels like a thinly veiled attempt at saying "see, the third party apps are so bad to us!" Feel free to name and shame Apollo if it's one of these clients, I have never received communication from Reddit about excessive usage, in fact I've reached out to you folks about ways to lower it, and I have no doubt I'm one of the largest apps.
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u/Nice-Digger Jun 03 '23
Pro tip. you can't. Reddit devs are incompetent, and have been for ages. Their app sucks for a reason, and it's not because they're too skilled for it.
The same company that is now complaining about API usage (which isn't valid lol) is the one that has tried and failed to make a competent video player for ages https://youtu.be/99cVnYY9Iqs
The redesign is an objective downgrade, the app sucks, upper management panders to horrible people who I won't bother naming in order to avoid copping a ban, and, in general, the site is run by idiots who haven't attracted actual talent since before obama stepped down as president.
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u/blacpythoz Jun 01 '23
If that doesn't work why don't all the third-party just replace the reddit backend with an open source alternative like Lemmy while providing users the same UI and features that we currently have.
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u/PrunedLoki Jun 01 '23
If this all goes to shit without Reddit fixing it, is it possible to modify Apollo so we can put in our own api key in the app so only my own traffic is registered when I use the app? Individually, I won’t reach the rate limit.
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u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 May 31 '23
So I've never looked into how OAuth implementations work in mobile app clients for reddit. But are you using some sort of self hosted "bounce" for the SSO or is the app directly interacting with reddit?
Because I have seen in a few examples, malicious bots love to steal OAuth client id and secrets from apps to use/disguise their own abuse since you can't really hide them in app binaries that any user can download.
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u/adeadhead Jun 01 '23
Thanks for all the work you do-
Is there any chance third party app developers would be able to release clients that allow (force) users to generate and use their own API keys?
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May 31 '23
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u/Prsop2000 Jun 01 '23
That reminds me of my ISP claiming I used 1TB of data in a 24 hour period when I wasn’t even at home. Their words were “our data collection servers are independently certified to be 99.9% accurate, so your data usage IS correct.”
Ahh yes, independently certified… business speak for “we paid a company to produce numbers for us so we can point to a plaque and feign perfection”
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u/Postpone-Grant May 31 '23
we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023
What does "limiting access" mean SPECIFICALLY?
Does that mean completely cutting off submission and retrieval of all NSFW posts? Or NSFW subreddits only? Do submissions still work but retrieval fails? Can users retrieve their own NSFW posts but not others?
Please be detailed, as this impacts application developers and "limiting access" does not tell us what is going to happen and which endpoints it impacts.
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
Thanks for the question! See the response here.
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u/Postpone-Grant May 31 '23
Currently, this change affects sexually explicit content displayed in large scale applications.
My app does not display adult content. Some users use my app to submit adult content, and my app does retrieve posts for analytics, but nothing is displayed to the user.
Does this still affect me?
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u/Postpone-Grant May 31 '23
I'd really love to nail the specifics of this down, because they do matter to developers. Here are some scenarios it would be really helpful to understand, as this will have a direct impact on my business:
Can a user still submit a post to an NSFW subreddit?
Can a user retrieve their own NSFW posts with the
/api/infoor/user/username/submittedendpoints?Can a user retrieve flair and other information (rules, post requirements, etc.) from an NSFW subreddit?
If not, what is returned in all of those scenarios? A 403 response? An empty body?
Again, the details really matter here and "affects content displayed in large scale applications" is not at all specific. We're in r/redditdev so you can use technical language with me about the endpoints this affects and how.
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Jun 01 '23
What about subreddits labeled NSFW that aren't sexual? We use it regularly in r/legitpiercing for things like nipple piercings, which presented in our context is completely nonsexual.
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Jun 01 '23
They have subs like r/pipetobacco and other adult oriented subs that are all NSFW just because of the adult oriented nature. This isn't going to end well
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u/glorious_albus Jun 03 '23
Bold of you to assume they are going to answer this. They are just doing this to screw third party applications and nothing more.
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u/StanleyOpar Jun 05 '23
These people are the mouthpiece for the shareholders dictating these decisions. They’re not the decision makers. They have to spout whatever whataboutism bullshit to downplay this API ban.
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u/Watchful1 May 31 '23
While the documentation has always stated 60 queries per minute, the actual rate limit headers returned by the api have been 600 queries per 10 minutes. Which works out to be the same, but allows a bit more burstiness for short periods.
Does this mean the new rate limit will be 1000 queries per 10 minutes or will it actually be 100 per minute?
Edit: Also will you publish the prices for the enterprise access or will it always be negotiated on a case by case basis?
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
We will average the queries over a time window (currently 10 minutes) to allow for burstiness, so it will be 1000 queries over 10 minutes to start.
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u/alcoholicpolaroid May 31 '23
Why can’t Reddit, with all the resources it has, simply compete against 3rd party developers by offering a premium experience? Seems like you are unable to do so, so your next best idea is to grab a baseball bat and go crack your competitors legs so they can’t stand up to you.
Offer a realistic API pricing, offer to feed ads to them or make those users pay for Premium, but at least be fair and compete with them instead of stalling competition and double speaking about what your intentions are.
You’ll go the way of Tumblr and Twitter. You’ll make ton of money on the short run, but on the long run you’ll kill many communities that made, unpaid and unthanked, what Reddit is today. Grow a soul.
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u/sohou Jun 01 '23
They already tried giving a "premium" experience by making certain features (like polls) only available on the official app. The fact is, people don't give a shit about a lot of the new stuff Reddit created, so now Reddit decided that will instead punish the users who aren't using their app.
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u/chakalakasp Jun 01 '23
Not that you care about one dude in the corner with layers of dust on him, but I was using Reddit weeks into its inception. I remember jacking FARK headlines and putting them here for literally dozens of upvotes (which would bring it to the top of the front page, the only page, pretty quick).
This is dumb. If your users don’t walk away from you for this idiocy then I guess they deserve you. Your app is garbage. Killing third party apps won’t make your app not garbage. It will make your users hate you.
To think that Aaron literally died because he thought information should be more accessible in less corporately exploited ways.
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u/nomadofwaves Jun 01 '23
99% of my Reddit usage is through Apollo. Once it’s gone I’m gone as a user.
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u/LiarInGlass May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23
Push millions of users away because you guys can’t develop a proper app like Narwhal or Apollo.
The official Reddit app is complete GARBAGE.
You are pushing away millions of users using Reddit on mobile because of this dumb move.
Fucking brilliant decision making on Reddit’s part.
Great job.
I’ll give you 0 queries over 0 minutes once this becomes in effect.
What a complete joke. It's really sad you guys would rather push away so many users instead of coming up with a better alternative. I will not use Reddit anymore in the future via mobile unless you guys can come up with a better mobile app, because the current one is terrible.
You'd be better off buying out the Apollo and Narwhal dev than going this dumb route and causing so many users to just stop browsing your platform.
Your greediness is really sad.
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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23
I commented this on the other post, but am duplicating it here, as it is such a critical question for so many communities.
What about anti-spam and anti-abuse tools, and mods, that need to access mature content communities other than those they have moderator status in?
Our bot relies on being able to do this to detect spambots, and both our bot and mod alike need to be able to see the content of communities that are linked to or cross-posted from, to ensure those communities are legitimate and legal. Aside from breaking our anti-spam, anti-CSAM, and safety tools, how will anyone ever be able to moderate mature content communities in the vacuum you intend to create?
Additionally, many other communities rely on similar bots to exclude users of mature content communities from communities which serve minors as they often present a real safety risk. What are communities that need these functions to do when you shut off our ability to see huge swaths of Reddit?
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u/Lil_SpazJoekp May 31 '23
While I definitely see where you're coming from and I agree with everything you've said, I feel you shouldn't have to write tools to protect Reddit from legal trouble with CSAM.
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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23
Even if Reddit somehow cleared out all the CSAM sellers and their communities, we still need the ability to access mature content posts and communities to enforce our rules and exclude NCIM posters, commercial pirates/scammers, spambots, doxxing groups, and more. We don't want any of those posting in our communities, but how can we identify them if we can't see anywhere else they post?
Even trivial things like seeing if a link to a subreddit is spam or not become impossible when neither your 3rd-party mobile app nor bot cannot see what that link goes to.
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Jun 01 '23
Law enforcement goes after anyone tangentially involved when it comes to children, guns, drugs, and terrorism. Anything to prop up the numbers. Mods are definitely in the right in having documentation that they are no where involved in that bullshit or wtv users post. Esp with section 230 constantly being looked at
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
This change should not affect moderation bots, i.e. submissions, retrievals etc should function as they do today. If you discover your bot is impacted, please reach out here. Currently, this change affects sexually explicit content displayed in large scale applications. Note that moderators logged into third party apps will still be able to access sexually explicit content for subreddits they moderate, provided the app passes along the moderators’ user credentials along with the relevant API requests.
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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23
That is not what I'm asking at all, and I don't know how to test if my bot is affected til the changes stop returning the data it relies on. This does not impact just us, it impacts every mod of any mature community on the site who uses any bot or 3P app; as well as anyone who might need to protect their non-mature communities from users who post in mature ones.
Large-scale applications include all 3rd-party apps, do they not? And you keep saying "able to access sexually explicit content for subreddits they moderate", when my question was very specifically about needing to access that content for subreddits we do NOT moderate.
Reddit communities aren't total vacuums, communities are heavily interlinked; it's a social networking site, is it not? How are mods of mature communities supposed to moderate cross-posts and links to content to and from elsewhere on the site when we cannot see those other communities? We just cross our fingers and hope those links aren't taking our users to scams, disturbing, and/or illegal content? How do we defend against brigading when we cannot see where it is coming from? How do we exclude doxxing gangs, paedophiles, and other dangerous users from our communities when we can't see where else they are posting? Even trivial things like seeing if a link to a subreddit is spam or not become impossible when neither your 3rd-party mobile app nor bot cannot see what that link goes to, and Reddit does not seem to have any understanding of how moderation of mature communities on their own platform actually works.
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u/Watchful1 May 31 '23
Thank you. That is some good detail.
It would still be really nice if you posted an actual list of what content will no longer be available from what endpoints. What about the /api/info endpoint?
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u/Thaodan Jun 08 '23
Have you checked if this is legal? You give your own app an advantage over third party apps. Restricting third-party apps this way makes the playing ground even more uneven since your app is free while third party apps aren't.
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u/Lil_SpazJoekp May 31 '23
Are there new headers being introduced or are you changing/modifying the behavior of the existing ones?
My understanding was the rate limit depicted in the current headers shows the rate limit is 600/10m (still 60 per minute) so you could burn your 600 requests in 10 seconds but you'd have to wait for rest of the 9m50s for your rate limit to reset. Will this be changing?
Will there be any changes to the exception or status code that is raised when rate limited?
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
We will update the existing headers; we aren’t planning to add new ones at this time. We are also not changing the exception or status codes. As mentioned above, we will average the queries over a time window (currently 10 minutes) to allow for burstiness.
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u/Blank-Cheque May 31 '23
if i can't use RIF then all of my bots are going offline as well as every subreddit i can manage, and i've spoken to several bot authors and powermods who said the exact same. not a threat, just a statement of fact that i won't help prop up a site that i can no longer use without bleeding from the eyes
t. has bots on over 1500 subreddits and moderator of over 400
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u/Selethorme May 31 '23
As a regular user of flair_helper, let me be the first to say I’m with you on this.
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u/pm_me_cute_sloths_ May 31 '23
How does this effect basic usage bots using PRAW and similar? I assume this means they’ll be rate limited when scraping data and iterating through comments and such?
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u/Blank-Cheque May 31 '23
honestly it sounds like they'll be mostly unaffected, since script-type bots are already limited to 60 requests per minute
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u/Khyta Jun 04 '23
Mod bots will be unaffected, even from the rate limiting if they apply correctly.
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u/anomalous_cowherd Jun 11 '23
People are trying to say "the third party apps are a tiny proportion and it won't be noticed" but I suspect that once the anti spam and other modbots are gone and a lot of the more committed content creators and maintainers too (who naturally use the 3rd party apps) the remaining flow of new content won't be worth much to anyone.
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
so it sounds like when reddit said the api access fees would be reasonable when this was first announced, they lied.
charging apollo $1.7m per month isn't reasonable. you guys are destroying everything that makes reddit usable. first it was screwing over pushshift, now apollo.
looks like the saying "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" is true, and reddit is repeating digg's history. can't wait to buy puts after your ipo.
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u/km3r May 31 '23
u/FlyingLaserTurtle, how is charging 21x the lost ad revenue per user for API access reasonable?
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u/zeffjiggler Jun 01 '23
Once Apollo dies, I’ll just stay on tiktok. Enjoy your 20 million a year u/FlyingLaserTurtle. Hope it works out for Yas, buddy. Wont miss you.
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u/Bigsmellydumpy Jun 02 '23
Tiktok just doesn’t do it for me, I wish there were an actual alternative
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u/MinekPo1 Jun 03 '23
Lemmy, at least functionally, seems to be there. As of now it is smaller, but I assume their numbers are rising, alike on Mastodon after Elon Musk announced he was buying twitter.
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u/Naggers___Dot---Com Jun 03 '23
There are free speech alternatives that work great, but redditors are scared of free speech so sorry you can't join them.
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u/nomdeplume Jun 06 '23
How do you know the ad revenue per user?
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u/km3r Jun 06 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3
He breaks it down there. Not a perfect calc, as it doesn't account for ad blocker users, 3rd party clients, and premium users. But all of those things would shift it to being more outrageous.
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Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 17 '23
The problem is not spez himself, it is corporate tech which will always in a trade off between profits and human values, choose profits. Support a decentralized alternative. https://createlab.io or https://lemmy.world
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u/Am3n May 31 '23
Yeah, as soon as u/iamthatis picks another place to go most who use apollo will follow
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May 31 '23
Unfortunately, that's a worthless threat to Reddit. The number of Apollo users is 0.325% the number of Reddit users, and those are users that aren't generating Reddit any ad revenue.
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u/IJustQuit Jun 01 '23
It's literally just to kill them. They aren't intending any of them to pay. Though I'm sure you know that at this point.
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u/olikam May 31 '23
So can you just confirm that you are banning 3rd party apps? This feels communicated as well as the Victoria departure and it's gonna go about as well.
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u/sjs May 31 '23
I’ve been paying for premium/gold since it was introduced (charter member) and have been here since 2006, and I just cancelled because of this incredibly poor move. I will not support a company that does this to their partners.
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u/vriska1 Jun 01 '23
Hopefully everyone on Reddit come together to fight the API changes, Users and Mods alike.
There alot of talk from many other subreddit mods even ones who don't use Apollo that they are going to do a reddit backout over this.
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u/Kapps Jun 01 '23
Yeah, I cancelled mine after 11 straight years as well. It’s not going to impact Reddit, and it’s not like they’ll care, but it is a matter of principle.
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u/snowmanspike Jun 02 '23
Same here: gold / premium since it was available from day one. That'll be the end of it for me if I can't choose what app I want to use. I prefer Apollo, and if I can't use it anymore because of company policies like this, I'll only be using reddit on my pc and with an ad-blocker from now on. Also, no more premium.
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u/nomadofwaves Jun 01 '23
Don’t worry NSFW content will be next on the chopping block as IPO approaches.
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u/CosmicSpaghetti Jun 04 '23
People aren't addressing how intensely the IPO is affecting all of this. NSFW/3rd party apps are now seen as a liability to the financial overlords, who are about to demolish reddit.
They're clearly banking on younger generations will engage without knowing the history here...we gotta make the message clear to all parties that this is pure corporate greed ruining an important piece of world community.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 03 '23 edited Jun 04 '23
Honestly think it would have gone over better if they just said they didn't want to allow 3rd party apps anymore. Ridiculous
edit: thought about it some more and it's the blatant lying that is really the issue. "We're trying to be fair with pricing" "your app uses way more api requests than this other example"(when the official app uses even more) "we are trying to be equitable" "we love 3rd party apps"
It's absurd.
Most decisions reddit has made for at least half a decade have been bad for users but good for their investors, yet they pretend it's for any reason but that. If they just admitted they need to make more money it would still be awful but far less insulting.
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Jun 04 '23
Seriously. They didn't have to walk on eggshells, they could've just announced they were permanently revoking the apps API keys and that would be that. It would've gone over like a tungsten balloon with the community still but it would've been done and over with, now it's gonna be a long drawn out event of bad PR.
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u/MoranthMunitions Jun 01 '23
the Victoria departure
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Chairman Pao built up a lot of community resentment very quickly.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 01 '23
do sessions from browser extensions count?
I'm the original creator of RES, and it's not really clear.
"To avoid any issues with the operation of mod bots or extensions, it’s important for developers to add Oauth to their bots."
RES doesn't use OAuth, it's just using the existing browser session. I'm not sure what "extensions" means in this context?
Ultimately, I guess if you're shutting down old.reddit (widely rumored, often subtly implied, but never fully admitted), all of this becomes irrelevant anyhow.
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u/webvictim Jun 01 '23
With braindead thought processes like these, they are very definitely going to come for old.reddit next.
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u/Phteven_j Jun 01 '23
Big fan of your work. At this point, I'm surprised we still even have old still available. It's the only thing that keeps the site usable for me. I wouldn't be on here otherwise. It's been several years since the switch and at this point, it seems reasonable to say that the vast majority of users must be new enough to use new exclusively, so they wouldn't miss old.
If there isn't already, perhaps there can be some sort of effort to reskin new reddit to make it more usable and more like old?
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u/howlingwelshman Jun 01 '23
RES makes using Reddit bearable on the desktop. If this effects RES as well Reddit is truly doomed.
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u/Toast_On_The_RUN Jun 08 '23
I just, like what am I gonna do? Obviously life is gonna keep on going, it's not like my life is going to be ruined or anything. But I've been using RIF for literally a decade. For 10 years I've used reddit daily, it's where I learn just about everything about the world. It's just gonna be strange not to have it, I'm not sure how im going to learn about the latest current events as well as infinite random information I enjoy learning. Is there any other site like this?
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u/b33t2 Jun 01 '23
I love res it keeps me using reddit on old. Screw new reddit and losing bacon reader time for a new social site
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u/ichuckle Jun 01 '23 edited Aug 07 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/deusset Jun 02 '23
Would it be possible to recreate old.reddit.com with a wrapper extension?
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u/GiorgioG May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23
I won't be renewing Reddit Premium without Apollo. Thanks!
Edit: Reddit Premium cancelled.
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u/nomdeplume Jun 06 '23
Will buy reddit premium for 5$, won't petition Christian to pay 2.50$ fee for Apollo to continue working. Impressive logic.
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May 31 '23
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u/yuletide Jun 01 '23
Apple makes it quite easy to get retroactive refunds if you complain to their support folks about accidental sub or degregaded service
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u/Reubachi May 31 '23
The moment Apolo's service is degraded or extorted, I'm off of reddit for good.
I can not imagine navigating to reddit.com or using the terrible native app.
Good riddance, and hoping Apollo/RIF devs find a way out.
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u/Cowboy_Perfect May 31 '23
Does Reddit not remember DIGG? The DIGG fiasco is what lead many people to Reddit.
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u/krs00pxy May 31 '23
Reddit was a pretty clear 2nd-best choice to DIGG at the time though so it was easier to jump ship. So what is the 2nd best choice now? Official Reddit app? A fragmented, unorganized-community experience on Discord/Twitter? Probably the former if I had to guess and they know it.
I think it spells the beginning of the end for Reddit. I think they know it too -- they're just hoping to maintain enough users through the IPO to cash out before the next site can gain traction.
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u/Pinwurm May 31 '23
Reddit website is fine if you opt out of the redesign in the settings.
But yeah, Apollo is the overwhelming majority of my Reddit usage. iOS users won’t happily migrate to a significantly worse, ad-riddled, clunky mobile platform.
I suspect this is a squeeze on Apollo - and hope they find a way out too.
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u/smokinJoeCalculus May 31 '23
I'll probably use old.reddit.com on mobile as a way to slowly ween myself off
And ultimately, when that's killed off in the very short term, it'll be good bye. Shame, it's been fun, but just like with Twitter, 10+ years is a solid run.
The ecosystem isn't the same, but I have no doubts there will be alternatives that pop up.
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u/Krillo90 May 31 '23
i.reddit.com was ideal for mobile, but they closed it down two months ago.
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u/RunJun May 31 '23
I was aware of Reddit prior but really I was an immigrant from the Digg debacle. This account is about to hit 15 years but once 3rd party apps are gone, I’m gone.
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u/lilbro93 May 31 '23
Start the boycott now.
Moderators of default subs need to turn them private in protest.
Fuck off with all but banning third party apps.
If you want people to use the default app, make it so good people actually want to use it.
Youtube Revanced exists, this will just result in a Reddit Revanced existing.
Let the shit-show commence
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u/FyreWulff Jun 01 '23
They've openly said they'll yank default subs from the mods if they ever attempt a blackout again.
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u/uberafc May 31 '23
They won't... People have no fight in them anymore and will roll over and open up their wallets. Only a handful of people are even aware of these changes. It really stinks but a lot of the internet is getting destroyed because of greed
Anyway I hope I'm wrong and we all get our pitchforks
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May 31 '23
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u/Watchful1 May 31 '23
People aren't going to protest until something actually happens. If all the third party apps actually shut down when this goes into effect, then something might happen. For now it's mostly just posturing by both sides.
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u/Karmanacht May 31 '23
Some are willing to, but it's difficult to actually coordinate mods on this site. It's easier to herd cats.
But I've been hearing a lot of talk about protests, so maybe something will happen.
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u/smokinJoeCalculus May 31 '23
Mods of default subs are basically employees of reddit
They aren't paid.
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u/EshuMarneedi May 31 '23
Fuck all of you. This is the stupidest decision Reddit has made and you will suffer the same fate as Twitter did.
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u/exscape Jun 01 '23
Twitter is the fifth most popular site in the world from what I can tell, so that's unfortunately not a very good threat.
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u/Karmanacht May 31 '23
They won't. Mods will continue to do it for free, users will continue to use the official app like they already are.
It would require a mass exodus for reddit to feel the pinch, and that won't happen without a viable alternative.
They've made their decision, and they know that their users have the memories of goldfish. Unless someone starts coordinating something soon, nothing will happen.
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u/Eustace_Savage May 31 '23
They were all doing it for free during the 2015 blackout. What's changed since then? Reddit still massively relies upon unpaid work. Though they seem insistent on completely subsuming moderation by receiving reports directly and actioning on them themselves so maybe they want an excuse to kick off all the free moderators.
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u/nayre00 Jun 01 '23
Then you are probably not old enough to remember Digg, the predessor of reddit. They are doing exactly what digg did and now, digg is 6 feet underground. Also we have alternative like lemmy. The only missing is a stimulus to cause a mass migration, but now we have reason to do so.
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u/sjs May 31 '23
People who care enough to use a 3rd party app (or have been around so long that they never even started with the official app) might have outsized representation as mods and heavy contributors so it could be more impactful than it seems by the aggregate numbers.
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u/timawesomeness Jun 01 '23
Mods will continue to do it for free
I sure won't, short of them exempting open source apps from this. I depend on a third party app for mobile moderation; the official app doesn't support r/toolbox features. If reddit doesn't want to support me as a moderator, I will not support them.
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u/bobthebobbest Jun 02 '23
Mods will continue to do it for free,
I really don’t think I will. I do 99% of my mod actions through Apollo, and I’m not going to transition to the quite bad Reddit app.
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u/deusset Jun 02 '23
I think you're underestimating how low the conversion rate from 3rd party apps to the official app will be, but only time will tell.
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u/GiorgioG May 31 '23
I wonder what Wall Street will think when your mobile users' usage drops off a cliff because of these stupid decisions.
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May 31 '23
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u/Rndom_Gy_159 May 31 '23
This is reddit's Digg moment. They won't see if for a while, but this is it.
reddit has had many so called digg moments. From u/violentacrez to gawker to "we did it reddit" to the canary disappearing to Ellen Pao to forcing third party apps to remove reddit from their name (turning "reddit is fun" to "rif is fun") to new.reddit vs old.reddit to the myriad of rules and rule enforcement drama. That's all just off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm missing huge ones.
If anything, this is the straw that broke the camels back, because shit like this has been a long time coming.
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
The problem is that it won't. While power users and mods use 3rd party apps, many of the "new" users use the official apps.
Simply, this and other related changes will only lower content quality, not quantity.
that kind of goes hand in hand though. if the people that make the communities worth going to leave, eventually the non-contributors who are just there will leave too.
the snowball is at the top of the mountain and this is reddit giving it a downward push.
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u/shhalahr Jun 05 '23
If power users and mods drop, that will affect the quality of content. That could trigger a drop in regular users too.
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u/iVarun Jun 01 '23
Digg moment happened because there was an alternative. There is no Reddit alternative currently. Disruption at this stage of internet (esp of scaled community dynamic, which are very sticky) is super hard.
Reddit can do what it wants because it has its niche (text social media) all to itself, no one is even 2nd or 3rd (twitter as a platform is totally different in structure, it's a separate niche).
Every few months/years it tries to cross niches (trying these audio, video, chat, nft/avtars, etc additions) which will obviously fail because these niches already have established social media peer competitions and Reddit simply doesn't have the platform structure to break into it (as a whole, since it always had sub-niches to a great degree already with Subreddit paradigm, that it also sabotaged with Redesign).
Post 2016-17 Reddit leadership, Fundamentally doesn't comprehend what Reddit even is. This is a cognitive handicap. They're trying to do which is unnecessary/needless but will muddle through because there will be no pushback since there is no Digg Moment like situation since no fundamental alternative exists (hence organic incentive pressure to course correct doesn't exist).
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u/MWisBest May 31 '23
Finally, to ensure that all regulatory requirements are met in the handling of mature content, we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023, except for moderation needs.
Could you elaborate on this? If moderators are allowed to see the content how are the "regulatory requirements" broken if all users are also allowed to see said content? Wouldn't it be against the requirements to allow anybody to see them?
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
Could you elaborate on this? If moderators are allowed to see the content how are the "regulatory requirements" broken if all users are also allowed to see said content? Wouldn't it be against the requirements to allow anybody to see them?
it's likely that they meant "IPO requirements". they just care about cashing out at this point. they probably have some cheap private shares they bought for pennies that they want to unload as soon as the lockout period ends.
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u/doug3465 May 31 '23
I just saw an adult man with his family walking through a large US city in an Apollo shirt yesterday. Couldn't believe it. We love Apollo. Please, reddit. Please.
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u/Ashdadog May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23
If you decide to follow through with this, Reddit will be Digging it’s own grave. You can’t make a usable app so you have to do stuff to try and kill off 3rd party apps entirely. Once Apollo is gone, a lot of people will drop reddit. Apollo gang ¯_(ツ)_/¯
edit: LMAO, the post [removed] by a dev is the funniest thing i’ve ever seen.
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u/oTHEWHITERABBIT Jun 09 '23
This is ✨ equity ✨
Instead of improve the situation, just sabotage it for everyone else. Ta-dah!
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u/busymom0 May 31 '23
The 5% upvoted ratio on this post should give you a hint. But it won't.
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u/cpc2 Jun 01 '23
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u/StanleyOpar Jun 05 '23
IPO happened and the shareholders said “fuck that shit right now or you won’t see a cent from us.”
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u/heyjoshturner May 31 '23
Can you include the app names? I'd love to know if Pager at least made the list before you kneecapped it
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u/guareber Jun 01 '23
They won't, as it'd just highlight how used the mobile apps are compared to the horrible reddit app.
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u/Baerog Jun 05 '23
While I love and support third party apps, this comment isn't rooted in reality.
Third party apps all together make up less than 1-2% of daily active reddit users if you just compare the numbers of active users on the apps to daily users on reddit. The reddit app is garbage, but the overwhelming majority of users aren't using third party apps, they're using the browser.
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u/ppParadoxx Jun 01 '23
Is that why Pager never works anymore? I was assuming it had something to do with me being on the TestFlight version of Apollo but if Reddit killed it that might make sense
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u/Downvotes_are_Grreat May 31 '23
This is obviously a move designed to push all third-party apps out of the market. I'll delete all my accounts and stop using reddit before I use your terrible reddit app. I hope I'm not alone.
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Dec 25 '23
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u/Downvotes_are_Grreat Dec 27 '23
Lol, ya...I haven't used the app. But I'm still here so fuck me. I do really miss baconreader tho.
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u/krypto_the_husk May 31 '23
This will gravely hurt Reddit in the long run but I know the Reddit team have never really cared about the user experience, and now you’re strong arming the only people who actually cared about this platform. Good riddance Reddit
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u/Thiswasmy8thchoice May 31 '23
Maybe, but there's a good chance that it's not that impactful. By all rights, Twitter should be a flaming husk right now, but it's still chugging along. The vast majority of social networking users are vacant, grinning normies that are content to eat whatever is served.
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u/bakakaizoku Jun 02 '23
You can't compare Reddit to Twitter, ask 100 people if they have heard of Reddit and over half of them would say no, whereas with Twitter 95 would say yes.
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u/SlickArcher May 31 '23
So... If someone were to release an open source android app to browse reddit and let the user provide their own api client id/secret, essentially every user of that app would fall in the free tier?
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u/little_baked Jun 01 '23
I was wondering that as well. Like fork the 3P app a couple million times, 1 for everyone. I'm assuming that to get access to the API to begin with you need to set up something with reddit and in this process a T&C would block the approval for access. But I have no idea. Please if someone does, or finds a reputable answer I'd appreciate to hear it!
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u/nilesandstuff Jun 01 '23
Not sure how or if it's going to change, but currently it's super easy to get an api key. 1 click to generate, and iirc you can have 10 per account, each with a seperate rate limit i believe.
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u/joeblowtokyo Jun 04 '23
Don't even need to generate a client key, just capture the client key and token from the official app/website.
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u/schacks May 31 '23
Goodbye Reddit on mobile. I’m gonna get sooo much free time by removing you from my phone. It was fun while it lasted.
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May 31 '23
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u/gypsyscot May 31 '23
Ah the over confidence in the tech sector that things will rebound after a while, how’d that work out for digg?
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May 31 '23
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u/bboe Jun 01 '23
From my reading it seems like it'll work fine, however, it seems the rate limit will be shared across all installations of the application. Thus if you have many users accessing Reddit through the same installed app credentials, they're going to run into issues.
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle Jun 02 '23 edited Jun 02 '23
As we committed to in our post on April 18 and shared in an update on May 31, we now have premium API access for third parties who require additional capabilities and have higher usage limits. Until this change, for-profit third-party apps used our API for free, at significant cost to us. Of course, we have the option of blocking them entirely, but we know third-party apps are valuable for the Reddit ecosystem and ask that they cover their costs. Our simple math suggests they can do this for less than $1/user/month.
How our pricing works
Pricing is based on API calls and reflects the cost to maintain the API and other related costs (engineering, legal, etc). This costs Reddit on the order of double-digit millions to maintain annually for large-scale apps. Our pricing is $0.24 per 1000 API calls, which equates to <$1.00 per user monthly for a reasonably operated app. However, not all apps operate this way today. For example, Apollo requires ~345 requests per user per day, while with a similar number of users and more comment and vote activity per user, the Reddit is Fun app averages ~100 calls per user per day. Apollo as an app is less efficient than its peers and at times has been excessive—probably because it has been free to be so.
Example for apps with 1k daily active users
Large scale commercial apps need to pay to access Reddit data
For apps that intend to use Reddit data and make money in the process, we are requiring them to pay for access. Providing the tools to access this data and all related services comes at a cost, and it’s fair and reasonable to request payment based on the data they use.
Edit: formatting