📣 Had a call with Reddit to discuss pricing. Bad news for third-party apps, their announced pricing is close to Twitter's pricing, and Apollo would have to pay Reddit $20 million per year to keep running as-is.

[u/iamthatis]

Hey all,

I'll cut to the chase: 50 million requests costs $12,000, a figure far more than I ever could have imagined.

Apollo made 7 billion requests last month, which would put it at about 1.7 million dollars per month, or 20 million US dollars per year. Even if I only kept subscription users, the average Apollo user uses 344 requests per day, which would cost $2.50 per month, which is over double what the subscription currently costs, so I'd be in the red every month.

I'm deeply disappointed in this price. Reddit iterated that the price would be A) reasonable and based in reality, and B) they would not operate like Twitter. Twitter's pricing was publicly ridiculed for its obscene price of $42,000 for 50 million tweets. Reddit's is still $12,000. For reference, I pay Imgur (a site similar to Reddit in user base and media) $166 for the same 50 million API calls.

As for the pricing, despite claims that it would be based in reality, it seems anything but. Less than 2 years ago they said they crossed $100M in quarterly revenue for the first time ever, if we assume despite the economic downturn that they've managed to do that every single quarter now, and for your best quarter, you've doubled it to $200M. Let's also be generous and go far, far above industry estimates and say you made another $50M in Reddit Premium subscriptions. That's $550M in revenue per year, let's say an even $600M. In 2019, they said they hit 430 million monthly active users, and to also be generous, let's say they haven't added a single active user since then (if we do revenue-per-user calculations, the more users, the less revenue each user would contribute). So at generous estimates of $600M and 430M monthly active users, that's $1.40 per user per year, or $0.12 monthly. These own numbers they've given are also seemingly inline with industry estimates as well.

For Apollo, the average user uses 344 requests daily, or 10.6K monthly. With the proposed API pricing, the average user in Apollo would cost $2.50, which is is 20x higher than a generous estimate of what each users brings Reddit in revenue. The average subscription user currently uses 473 requests, which would cost $3.51, or 29x higher.

While Reddit has been communicative and civil throughout this process with half a dozen phone calls back and forth that I thought went really well, I don't see how this pricing is anything based in reality or remotely reasonable. I hope it goes without saying that I don't have that kind of money or would even know how to charge it to a credit card.

This is going to require some thinking. I asked Reddit if they were flexible on this pricing or not, and they stated that it's their understanding that no, this will be the pricing, and I'm free to post the details of the call if I wish.

- Christian

(For the uninitiated wondering "what the heck is an API anyway and why is this so important?" it's just a fancy term for a way to access a site's information ("Application Programming Interface"). As an analogy, think of Reddit having a bouncer, and since day one that bouncer has been friendly, where if you ask "Hey, can you list out the comments for me for post X?" the bouncer would happily respond with what you requested, provided you didn't ask so often that it was silly. That's the Reddit API: I ask Reddit/the bouncer for some data, and it provides it so I can display it in my app for users. The proposed changes mean the bouncer will still exist, but now ask an exorbitant amount per question.)

[u/JulioChavezReuters]

Hi Christian, I work for Reuters. I’ve passed this link on to some of our tech and social media reporters

[u/iamthatis → u/JulioChavezReuters]

Oh hey! Sorry for the delayed response, my fingers hurt from typing today, and I've missed replies from some cool folks. My email is me at christianselig.com if you folks or anyone else want to talk.

[u/PancakeMaster24]

I’m so sorry u/iamthatis.

As a beta tester since your first post on r/apple i have loved this app (even in the rebuild period right before release all those years ago). The ios based design, the amazing features, and everything else has been outstanding. I know you’ve spent so much time, money, and effort coding this app and it’s honestly the best app I’ve ever used truly.

No matter what happens or what the future holds (new app or dramatic changes) I think I speak for all beta testers that we’ll support you always.

Godspeed mate 🫡

[u/iamthatis → u/PancakeMaster24]

Thanks for being with me so long :) That post feels both ages ago and just like yesterday

[u/MadisonDelta]

There’s no other way of saying this, this sucks.

Upside, did Reddit just give Apollo a $20m per year valuation? /s

If you haven’t already, get a transactional lawyer for negotiations.

Edit: I know that’s not how valuations work

[u/iamthatis → u/MadisonDelta]

Wow, I didn't think of it like that

[u/FriedEngineer]

Reddit is crazy to think this pricing is reasonable. Appreciate your transparency as always!

[u/Estul]

It’s been a good run folks

[u/staile]

Their pricing is outlandish. If they don’t compromise or another solution isn’t found, well I certainly won’t be an active Reddit user any longer as I use Apollo almost exclusively.

[u/JohnnyFiama]

Christian - First and foremost I would like to acknowledge the pain that you are likely feeling right now.

People can say what they want about building a business atop public APIs, but it is clear you had developed a solid working relationship with the company behind it, and so had every reason to believe these shenanigans would not occur.

I truly hope you find someway in which to salvage the Apollo product, and that it remains viable for you in the longterm. All my best!

[u/TACkleBr]

Reddit is jealous that you made a better app. Shame on the greed.

[u/austingriffis]

I guess I’ll start reading books, or maybe spend more time with my kids.

[u/MacZealot]

Reddit deciding to Digg their own grave.

[u/[deleted]]

Well, Reddit was fun while it lasted. I’m gone the day this goes into effect, I guess.

Christian, thanks for all of the work you’ve continually put into making Apollo such an amazing experience, and I’m sorry to see this happen. It’s utterly unreasonable, and they know it. If they’re going to ban 3rd party apps in practice (as this very clearly is designed to accomplish), they should have the balls to just do it rather than pull this nonsense.

[u/IronRectangle]

This is absurd pricing. There’s no way I or many others will continue to post, comment, or moderate anywhere near our current levels without good apps like Apollo. I really hope they take feedback from the pricing announcement and drastically re-think things.

That being said, I’m also personally okay with you raising subscription prices if needed in the future. I use the hell out of this app.

Edit, to be clear: forcing devs to increase their subscription prices only so that a bucket of money can be passed on to Reddit for API access is not okay. I understand that price increases need to happen sometimes, even for things like the cost of APIs or other resources, but this is extremely ham-fisted by Reddit.

[u/onlysaysnobodycares]

Bye bye, Reddit. Let me know where you guys are moving to next!

[u/Gizoogle]

If 3rd party apps are priced out of existence just because Reddit is trying to funnel users into its own app, I'm done with Reddit. Simple as.

Content will go to absolute shit anyways if you evaporate that many users, so no loss.

[u/robbiet480]

What the fuck

[u/[deleted]]

The only reason I even bother using Reddit is because if Apollo.

So…

[u/Mqxi]

Might as well take the effort you've put in and build your own platform utilizing most of what Apollo already offers. Though, I'm sure Apollo is entirely built around Reddit, and it's API, so it would basically need to be rewritten to go without. Sucks that Reddit is eliminating third party applications without saying it...

[u/Piemeson]

Just chiming in to say, if the pricing change goes through, I’ll be leaving the platform as well.

It was plenty easy with Twitter, and nothing of value was lost.

I’ve lost all patience for tech platforms using one strategy to make it big then “pivot” and screw over the people who got them there.

[u/topredditbot]

Hey u/iamthatis,

This is now the top post on reddit. It will be recorded at r/topofreddit with all the other top posts.

[u/jimbo831]

I guess the end of my time on Reddit approaches. I’m not switching to their much worse app.

It has been an honor shitposting with you all.

Where are we moving to?

[u/bawpcwpn]

This is really shit Christian. Can only hope they come around to a new ideal. For what it’s worth however, if it cost $2.50/$3 a month to use Apollo, would probably gladly pay it to have a great reddit experience and support someone worthwhile.

[u/sunbeam60]

This isn’t pricing to what a Reddit user costs Reddit to run.

This is pricing to what they expect a Reddit user to make them, once they have forced everyone over to the official channels AND then mine our profiles to force us to watch adds on channels where we can’t escape.

This isn’t about killing external 3rd party apps per se - it’s about making sure they’ll make the same or more one way or the other.

I’ve been a Reddit user for 17 years. This will make me leave.

… and it isn’t just because reddit has great third party clients. It’s because it’s the first clear sign about what reddit wants to turn into.

… and to that I say: Fuck you reddit!

Edit: If Reddit is so desperate to monetise then enable an ad API that enables third party clients to offset their cost to you by showing your ads. I get you’re a business, Reddit, but you don’t also have to be assholes.