r/classicwow • u/jankowalskir • 27d ago
Forever My proposal for Blizzard’s biggest problem
The current solution in the beta is too game-changing. It damages traditional gameplay and socialization (potential Rogue and Druid speedrunning meta). With my proposal, we don’t need to touch baseline exp and gold from mobs and quests at all!
Penalties are tracked individually per dungeon, meaning farming one instance will not affect your rewards in others.
Percentages, duration, and stacks may vary.
EDIT:
Wow, didn’t expect this much traction!
To address some issues and pin the best ideas from the comments:
- Percentages are too low. You are suggesting 20% / 25% per stack.
- What is a dungeon clear? I would leave it to Blizzard; it's too technical, but definitely BEFORE killing the last boss.
- It does not affect the drop rates of items.
- Not applicable to the endgame.
- Learning curve. Diminishing returns has always been in WoW's DNA (stuns/CC).
- Might be tuned by the Legacy System points.
- It might feel like a penalty just for completing a dungeon. Solution: The debuff only applies after the second run
- Personally, I don't mind the dungeon grind; I just wanted to propose something better than Blizzard did!
EDIT 2:
Updated Tooltip Mockup based on the Boosted Rest (Camp Tent debuff)
EDIT 3:
Inverted psychology approach. The first run gives you 150% more XP and gold than normally. Later on, the experience is cut like it's currently on the beta. Thrill of Discovery
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u/IvanSimovic 27d ago
Haha, yea, let Blizzard repeat mistake's from their past.
They used to have a issue, people play way to damn much... how to avoid it? at some point you start getting less xp, surprise surprise everyone hated the idea... Blizzard got smart and so rested XP was born.
You dont punish players for doing something, you reward them instead... carrot instead of stick.
Quests are the first carrot for doing dungeons once, just make sure there are no carrots for doing them over and over and your good.
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u/jankowalskir 27d ago
The rested XP comparison is a great point, psychological aspect. Blizzard already brought out a massive stick. Diminishing returns is a compromise, rather than the flat sledgehammer nerf we have now.
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u/IvanSimovic 27d ago
I think the only problem is that the sledgehammer nerf was a bit too much... thats all.
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u/Trlckery 27d ago
Agree with you completely. It's the right idea just a little heavy handed.
Maybe reduce the quest xp just a little bit and increase the dungeon mob xp just a little bit in turn. But keep it in the same direction it's going. After doing a dungeon one time, the carrot should be pulling you back into the open world instead of just having an infinite carrot supply for both xp and gear in endless dungeons.
People gotta remember this is the beta so this is exactly when blizzard will be evaluating and dialing things up or down.
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u/Dr-Enforcicle 27d ago
The difference is that previous mechanic applied to ALL exp gains everywhere.
This is just for dungeons.
Not the same thing. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
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u/IvanSimovic 27d ago
so what if its ALL exp vs dungeon exp, the concept is the same. do you use carrot or stick to guide your players towards the play-style you invision as game-dev
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u/Dr-Enforcicle 27d ago
"so what if it's one thing in specific or another thing entirely"
room temperature IQ
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u/drifter91 27d ago
It makes sense, but Blizzard rarely like to implement convoluted and confusing systems. The current system is much easier to grasp for the average player.
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u/jankowalskir 27d ago
Yeah, but it's hard to find a simple solution for a complex problem.
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u/5panks 27d ago
I don't know that it is a complex problem from Blizzard's perspective. Forever is a different game and part of their design philosphy is getting you out in the world, so they're heavily discouraging spamming the same dungeons over and over.
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u/orus_heretic 26d ago
Instead blizzard are encouraging running every dungeon once for the quests and consequently skipping the world.
Boosting is a solved problem in other versions of wow. Combo of mobs giving no xp with a high level party member and teleporting mobs works well.
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u/AstroFlippy 27d ago
Blizzard rarely likes to implement convoluted and confusing systems? Have you played retail?
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u/drifter91 27d ago
I haven't played retail in forever, so maybe they have changed that stance over the years. I do know that they think of Classic like a simpleminded game (which it is).
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u/Mind-Game 27d ago
Have you seen the sharding system on these megaservers too haha
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u/AstroFlippy 27d ago
Horrible, to the point where I'm wondering if it's a deal breaker for me. Taking the zeppelin or having world PvP at a zone boarder really kills the immersion
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u/Kharics 27d ago
I'm not quite sure which Systems you really mean? They are all quite Simple as of late since ~DF
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u/intoxicatedpancakes 27d ago
There are a shocking and concerning amount of players who just cannot grasp how professions work anymore since the DF rework, same as crests and bonus rolls somehow.
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u/Kharics 27d ago
I mean the only convoluted part is maybe how discounts work, that I may say it's a bit hard to understand since it involves math. But everything else? And it's not like they are NOT saying anything to the player? It's like people refuse to read roadsigns and then complain that they got lost
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u/jankowalskir 27d ago
A new mockup
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u/monkorn 27d ago edited 27d ago
You're not thinking classic enough. During the beta of vanilla they implemented this same exact system - but for all kill XP instead of just for dungeons - they called it the fatigue system. Players were out-raged. Huge out-roar. Blizzard had to reverse course.
Then one of their designers came up with the rested system - 200% XP that degraded to 100% instead of 100% that halved. Players loved it. Then in TBC they double the XP to level, which meant the system was exactly identical to the fatigue system they put in originally, it just took a few years.
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u/Ostraga 27d ago
Why are we trying to fix what isn't broken?
We're acting like EVERYONE was ONLY spamming dungeons when that wasn't the case at all. Some people spammed dungeons at very specific levels, mainly SM and some ZF. The vast majority of people just quested normally with the occasional dungeon thrown in once you acquired the quests.
And anyone who's questing at a decent pace is either matching or faster than dungeon spammers. And honestly I don't know why we're trying to dictate how people play the game in a game that's supposed to be more of a sandbox than its counterpart.
There's a wound that doesn't exist and we're all trying to figure out how to remove the dirty bandage on the wound and everyone's suggestion is to throw clean bandages ontop of the dirty bandage.. just remove the damn dirty bandage because there's no wound.
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u/bobis_alt 27d ago
It was never a good idea to dungeon spam as it already is slower than open world leveling, and if it was to counter boosting it should have just made it so if you have a player 5 levels above the lowest level you get a stacking debuff of 5% per level above your lowest character in instance
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u/Fickle_Composer_4506 24d ago
No, dungeon in a premade were faster.. As a group of randoms someone will fuck up at some point. Which makes it slower.
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u/Unlucky_Photo_599 22d ago
Besides AoE mage farming, questing is the fastest way to level. All the speedrun guides follow quest chains to minmax leveling speed. Dungeons were always slower.
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u/Chaogod 23d ago
You very clearly didn't play when the classic servers first rolled out because that was literally what a majority of what anyone did was dungeons. Questing areas were borderline dead. Why would you quest when dungeons are the following.
Mindless and easy to do, no back and fourth, no need to turn anything in besides a few quests, gives you some of the best gear, also some of the best ways to make money, gives you a ton of XP. The incentive to do dungeons over questing is night and day. They needed to make it so that they are at least a little less alluring.
"Well why don't they just add more to quests to give better XP or loot?!" Because the point of forever isn't "make bar go up as fast as possible". People are trying to approach this from an old mindset of "I gotta get to end game quick! That's when the game begins!".
They specifically said "We want people out in the world." So to me at least it sounds like dungeons are going to take more of a backseat compared to other versions of the game. Assuming that is their intent. And if that is then that's fine if you don't like that. You don't need to play forever. There's four other versions of the game you can play where you can do dungeons and level quickly till your eyes bleed.
Bottom line I think the point is to try and take focus away from dungeons as much to try and get people to enjoy the world more.
This idea isn't perfect and I 100% agree that it needs to be worked on more. But I think people are waaaaay too focused on the progression aspect of the game. If that's your sole reason for playing WoW then I don't know what to tell you.
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u/Far-Warning2313 23d ago
Because people can only think till their next meal and don't understand that people were going zf and Scarlett monestery because of the alternatives (Srry but stviatnam isn't a good zone to quest in)
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u/Guilty_Turn8903 27d ago
Dungeon spam goes seriously against the spirit of vanilla wow. I suggest you get rid of that "I NEED TO GET TO LVL 60 NOW!!! SPAM SPAM SPAM!!" mentality entirely, you'll enjoy the journey and the game a lot more.
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u/FirstAd1119 27d ago
Or everyone plays in whatever way is more fun to them.
What's it to you if some people want to spend 42-50 inside ZF
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u/Ostraga 27d ago
I don't dungeon spam at all, which is my entire point, most people don't. This is an artificial problem that's been created.
And even for the people that DO dungeon spam, it's not faster. I hit 60 with a /played of about 3 to 3.5 days /played, i promise you people who spam dungeons aren't hitting that on average.
And the entire problem is that in order to fix this problem that doesn't exist, they've made leveling out in the world EVEN MORE unlikely. With the way things are right now, you'll just quest to 14 then run 1 of each dungeon with full quests and probably hit 60 with 80% of your time being spent in dungeons in 1/2 the /played than it takes in classic.
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u/nameisinappropriate 27d ago
Why do we want to discourage tanks and healers from running dungeons again?
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u/old__pyrex 27d ago
Yeah, I think we / blizzard is letting this bogeyman (“players will spend their times in dungeons, not in our open world, oh no”) drive their philosophy here. But if we return to classic design principles, grouping up with players to do a dungeon is one of the best things that can happen in an mmo. The mix of players who have done the dungeon before and take on a guiding role, the mastery and competence you build doing it a few times, having an experienced tank or healer save the day… it’s rewarding. The problem isn’t players repeatedly running dungeons, that’s clearly what blizzard set out to make when they made vanilla dungeons expansive, cool, rewarding places. The problem is just that some players were getting stupid fast xp through spamming dungeons with particular group set ups. A targeted and proportionate nerf there, and we are good,
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u/wittyandunoriginal 27d ago
“We/blizzard”
Why is this even a problem for anyone? If you want to run dungeons to level, run dungeons. If you want to quest to level, quest.
Why do you care how people are leveling?
If dungeon XP is too high, just decrease it across the board. Don’t issue a debuff for doing something I like doing to literally punish me for playing the game the way I want to.
Why is this even a problem?
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u/thecandide 21d ago
Dungeons should only give quest XP and item rewards. It's essential to the game's design and philosophy. It's an MMO not a instance simulator. You have retail if you want to spam dungeons.
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u/Vadernoso 27d ago
Because some people think if I level in a dungeon, it effects them. Its just stupid.
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u/Mind-Game 27d ago
Because you aren't being social if you spend a lot of time with a consistent group of 4 people running a dungeon together and fighting with teamwork.
You're being social questing on layer 76 of the faceless NA PvP megaserver where sometimes you might even run past the same person twice!
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u/Llovio_cuatro_anos 27d ago
Dungeons are just way overtuned in Classic. They're the best exp and best loot. Fine to just be best loot.
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u/Swimming-Life-7569 26d ago
>They're the best exp
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u/Vadernoso 27d ago
Nobody cares about the low level loot, its always about EXP and they are not better XP. Its just less annoying and more fun to spam dungeons.
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u/Gimli_Son-of-Cereal 23d ago
Or hear me out.. just let the people who want to dungeon grind do it. There’s SO many of you who want the only way to level to be questing out in the world, just do it. No one is forcing y’all to dungeon grind just because it’s more efficient.
Do a couple dungeons and get back out in the world. Why do we need to force everyone to play the way you want?
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u/jmkdp14 22d ago
I think it's the psychological aspect of it games these days. A lot of people will do what is most efficient regardless if it is the most fun in a game like WoW. People in raiding guilds want to get to max level as fast as possible, to start gearing to raid. There may even be a lot of pressure from guild and friends to "come dungeon grind, instead of wasting time questing." Yeah it sounds dumb, but that is just the way it is.
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u/DrawPractical4804 22d ago
Because we tried it in all other instances of WoW and it didn't work, so let's try something new for this version at least?
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u/Awaheya 27d ago
I just read they don't allow dual specs up until 40. So what incentive do the very small group of healing/tank willing players have to even run dungeons as an actual proper healer/tank?
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u/Chiggo1 27d ago
Because fast groups and up to 40 it doesn't matter what you spec anyways, you can heal as boomkin or feral, tank as Ret pala or arms warri for example so that always was incentive enough for me.
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u/Swimming-Life-7569 26d ago
>it doesn't matter what you spec anyways
Okay so since this wasnt an issue in re-releases of Classic/TBC/Wotlk for low level dungeons either, surely none of those had tank shortages on lower levels?Wait right fuck, its never been about who can tank. It has always been about who's willing to tank so please stop repeating this irrelevant shit.
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u/ThePiderman 27d ago
Protection paladins are very strong in the open world, at least. I switched to prot at 20, and intend to stay so for the foreseeable future.
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u/Sarmattius 26d ago
dude its based on vanilla! its not retail where you pick a specialization and you recieve new abilities at lvl 10. 5 points in shield specialization dont make you a protection tank. You just wear appropriate gear for your role and that's enough
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u/Howard_Jones 26d ago
Dual rank should be unlocked at 20. Quality of life and such. Levleing as a healer is grueling.
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u/Ancient_End_4619 27d ago
i like this. its clear and its so easy to buff or nerf it by just changing the duration or the stack %.
simple, clear easy to adjust and yet the blizzard team finds a stupid way to do the trick and holds on to it no matter what.
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u/eulersheep 27d ago
This actually makes a lot of sense because you tend to improve less and less from repeated tasks IRL too.
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u/dsalter 27d ago
that kind of goes against the principle of "practice makes perfect" but more lines up with being rewarded for doing the exact some thing over and over isn't impressive its just a job at that point and should reduce your exp gained on the merit of it being "less impressive" as a hero
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u/Fatalisbane 27d ago
You get diminishing returns from practising the same thing, then you sleep and lose the debuff, so it fits.
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u/tredbobek 27d ago
Practice makes perfect still works with diminishing returns. You gain less and less, but still more than doing nothing
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u/porkypine666 27d ago
Uh... what??? This is literally the opposite of how things work?
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u/valmian 27d ago
I think what they mean is something like this:
You've never done task A before. You do task A, you learn a lot. You do task A again, and you still learn a bit, but not as much as the first time you've done it. You still "grow", but not as much as the first time you completed that task.
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u/Primera_Espada 27d ago
I mean doesnt it already do this from you leveling up? You can't grind the same dungeon to max level (level relevant not like a 60 farming a 60 dungeon while a alt sits at the entrance) and from what I hear 90%of the xp from forever dungeons is the quests so you dont want to run dungeons over and over unless you're farming a drop
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 27d ago
Calling it muscle memory however, does not make sense, as that only really makes you better at something.
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u/Rolia1 27d ago
Muscle memory =/= better. There's a lot of "bad" muscle memory. Learning an instrument is a good example of that because you can certainly learn how to do things the wrong way very easily and can take a long time to retrain yourself how to get out of bad habits.
It's hard to quantify in general but I'd argue there's a lot of more bad muscle memory depending on the hobby/skill because often times you need to be cognizant to improve at something to turn it into good muscle memory. Being passive towards learning can very easily lead you to inefficiencies which can cause bad muscle memory. I'd argue more people are very passive with their way of learning because many believe "repetition" is how you learn but it's often more nuanced/complex than simply doing something over and over until you "figure it out".
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u/wowbutters 27d ago
Enjoy the epic tank/healer shortage if there's no reason to run a dungeon more than once, signed a tank.
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u/BearerseekseekIest 27d ago
Yup, fellow tank / healer here, one and done, the only reason people are getting groups now is cause it's capped at 20, people gonna be spamming LF1M tank then go for an hour
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u/Weary-Tap-1192 27d ago
There's always gonna be a tank shortage. But I don't think this is gonna make it worse. Any warrior, druid, pally can tank these low level dungeons in any spec pretty easily.
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u/potentially_meh 27d ago
Thats why you see groups with 3 war/pal/druid dps looking for a tank and a healer. Bet you see at least 4 of those if you open up LFG right now. People dont like tanking and healing as much as they like dps. Some people might, given incentive change to tanking dungeons while leveling. Removing incentives (like removing xp from mobs in dungeons) makes the shortages worse
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u/Swimming-Life-7569 26d ago
>Any warrior, druid, pally can tank these low level dungeons in any spec pretty easily.
This was the case in Classic/TBC/Wotlk at lower levels, did those versions have tank shortages?Right they, why the fuck do you guys keep spamming this same shit that doesnt matter at all.
You could have every single class be able to tank at lower levels and it wouldnt matter because vast majority of players just dont want to do that shit.Fucking christ it's been years, stop being wrong. Or at the very least stop commenting about it if you dont know.
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u/MbassyMM 22d ago
im grinding 20 times the same dungeons because the fucking item wont drop or i lose the roll
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u/nazzo_0 21d ago
And this should be the reward. Not spamming them cause they're meta for xp. There are also plenty of great quest rewards so it's really dealers choice. At first hearing that you could chain questline dungeons to 60 sounded nice as it offered an alternative to world questing but at that point you're not really seeing any of the world, just checking the wiki for pre reqs and quests and moving on to the next tier
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u/inyourbooty 27d ago
It should be taught in school how bad of an idea this is because it gets repeated inside of every community and absolutely does not have the intended result.
As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The solution is not to nerf, it's to boost the first few completions. Same intended effect, but it actually works.
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u/Fourply99 27d ago
It’s definitely better than what blizzard has done IMHO
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u/Used-Huckleberry-320 26d ago
nahh other guy is right. they found the same thing with rested XP in vanilla.
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u/oddspellingofPhreid 27d ago
Valid critique with an easy fix. Make the first run a buff instead of subsequent runs a debuff (hey, we just re-enacted the rested XP story).
It's essentially what they did with dungeon quest XP, but you can tell they've had to change dungeon quest design since so many of the previous dungeon quests are the capstone of a long chain or hidden off-site. Not an issue if you run a dungeon 2-3 times but it's actually pretty tedious now since you don't want to run a dungeon until you've got all the quests ready. All the new dungeon quests are in or directly around the instance.
I don't like the route they went because of similar design implications. The quest design had to be simplified and so far everyone is just looking for shortcuts to skip content to finish the quests.
They nerfed dungeon mob XP too much imo. I understand that it's less than half of the mob xp that it is in Classic? Hopefully it's just an extreme for gathering data. It shouldn't be the optimized leveling route but it shouldn't be a significant slowdown to your leveling progression to run a dungeon without the quests.
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u/Darthok 27d ago
Or we just let people play how they want. Crazy idea.
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u/jankowalskir 27d ago
And a free market will regulate by itself. (and hurt many in the process...)
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u/redditlvlanalysis 27d ago
If people are dungeon spamming your precious open world will have less competition for quest mobs. Some of us don't want to do quests over again but still enjoy running dungeons.
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u/Mind-Game 27d ago
Does it really hurt people if some fraction of the population decides to level in dungeons and there are only 30 shards of each zone around launch time and not 40?
With megaservers, I really don't see the problem with doing things that might pull some people out of the open world.
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u/Doctor_Redhead 27d ago
I’m a bit out of the loop: what’s the biggest problem we are trying to solve? And what’s the current solution in beta?
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u/Kadji100 27d ago
In Forever Dungeons mobs only give very little exp while dungeon quests give much more exp than before.
If you don't have a quest for the dungeon it is not worth the time for the small amount of exp that you get, it is no longer an option to level in dungeons. I only repeat dungeons for gear that I need, after that there is sadly no reason to do repeated runs.
As a healer leveling in dungeons was always my prefered way instead of solo questing out in the world. Can't do that anymore with the current system in Forever.
OP is trying to find a middle ground where multiple repeated runs would give you less and less exp. That way you can't level all the way through dungeons but the first few runs, even without quests, would yield enough exp to make it worthwile.
Not sure about the gold limitation though? I would have only tweaked the exp values.
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u/Randomae 27d ago
I’ve leveled healers and it’s a pain to level up by questing and so much more enjoyable to dungeon. DPS is fun either way.
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u/Superb-Astronaut-371 23d ago
It’s just forcing you out into the world..?? You get a nice boost after initial quests and then if you spam dungeons well that’s not recommended anymore get over it
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u/Easy-Cheesecake6116 27d ago
People don't like the way others play the game so people are trying to force others to play it the way they play it.
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u/Pika_Crew 26d ago
Blizzard wants people to be out in the open world so the world feels full (the world is the main character) so they nerfed dungeon xp but buffed the dungeon quest xp so you cant spam dungeons to level.
Some players dont want an MMO, they want a dungeon runner so they are mad that the game wants them to play an MMO
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u/Subject_Sentence_339 21d ago
And why are you mad people want to play it differently from you? How does it hurt you?
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u/Isklar1993 26d ago
More specific than others have said:
The problem is that you have boosting groups in vanilla: groups that charge gold to spam dung while you afk at the start, which in turn people RWT to buy the gold to pay then, which leads to more bots creating gold to sell
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u/Il_Valentino 27d ago
anything other than "let people spam dungeon if they like it more" is stupid. it's beyond me why people want to dictate other players how to play. i would tank deadmines 5 times in a row on any classic release. if this nonsense stays it's like 80% of the game are gone for me.
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u/No-Salary2116 27d ago
As a healer, questing is fucking miserable.
Healers tend to dungeon spam because its easy to find groups as a healer, and youre able to actually fulfill the role you want to play.
All of this just ultimately fucks over tanks and healers for no reason other than "we dont want people to spam dungeons."
But its such an easy fix if that is their goal...
However, its such a short sighted solution. Theyre basically encouraging you to never do the dungeon again. Why in the hell, as a game designer, are you going to completely invalidate a massive portion of the game and leveling experience?
Im not one to actually complain about most games, but this decisions is downright fucking stupid.
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u/Il_Valentino 27d ago
the people who complain about dungeon spamming are free to go outside and do questing. with the new mega servers im sure no one will complain about the world being empty. also questing was never bad xp so no reason to feel forced to spam.
let the rest, especially us tanks and healers, actually play the game like it is intendend
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u/DaRubyRacer 22d ago
You can heal earlier on as well, probably close to 3 levels earlier than a reliable tank.
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u/ASeaofStars235 27d ago
I agree. This isn't a problem that needs to be fixed and it blows my mind that the core of the game has been destroyed to try to "fix" it. When I say this, people just say I'm a mage or I pay for runs, when I've never played mage and I've never paid for a run.
I'm leveling a prot warrior on beta atm and I've ran HoT 4 times and have only seen the boots drop. I get like half of a bar of EXP for a full clear. I can't imagine doing this for Mara, BRD, ST, etc.
Just thinking about all of the times I'd roll with people to go to BRD for a chance at a late-dungeon drop while getting some good EXP... that's dead now. Unless Blizz does something different.
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u/givemedavoodoo 23d ago
I don't think I've ever seen such a collective brain dead take like the "enjoy the journey" group is spewing right now. It's honestly concerning if this is the direction the game is going and there's a large group of people cheering it on.
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u/Ok-Comedian-6852 27d ago
These artificial restrictions, instead of balancing the world is what went wrong with wow in the first place. That debuff breaks immersion in the world just as badly as layering does in the beta.
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u/JBflawless 27d ago
Nothing more immersive than going into the same place over and over and killing the same bosses over and over.
Makes me feel like I’m living in a real world!
I’m not stoked about the dungeon exp nerf but saying the lack of dungeon spam breaks immersion is an insane take
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u/Ok-Comedian-6852 27d ago
Where did I say that the lack of dungeon spam made the world less immersive? I said having a debuff that disincentivizes you from doing certain content is not immersive.
Running the same dungeon over and over is no less immersive than looting bobs lost wedding ring at the same time as 10 other people and then turning it on and see 10 new players accept the quest you just completed. That's just the nature of an online game, people will do quests you've already completed and people will run dungeons that have already been cleared.
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u/Zealousideal_Use4379 27d ago
Buffs/debuffs that exist for the sole purpose of moderating player behaviour kill immersion.
It's like getting a deserter debuff but instead of flaking on a BG queue you literally just finished a dungeon. The deserter debuff has a place in the game, this idea does not imo.
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u/Sleipnirs 27d ago
I'm baffled by how popular that suggestion is.
It will hurt legit players way more than it will hurt bots. The whole freaking thing about WoW always has been to do dungeons and you guys are suggesting to nerf them into the ground because you guys can't keep your credit cards in your damn wallet.
Just look at the beta, right now. The bots aren't in dungeons, they're on the coasts making tons of gold through fishing.
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u/Automatic-Cycle-1824 27d ago
no you see the real gameplay is killing 20 pygmy spiders in duskwood, group content is antithetical to classic /s
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u/Zealousideal_Use4379 27d ago
Yeah stuff like this feels so gamey as well - getting a specific buff to enforce how to play the game is lame - if people want to level by spamming dungeons that should be fine and not penalized just to stop bots that blizzard could do more to ban.
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u/osee115 27d ago
I don't believe OP is trying to address the bots. It is in response to Blizz shifting all of the XP away from dungeon mobs to dungeon quest rewards to avoid people dungeon spamming to level. This would replace that and would make repeat dungeons more relevant while still disincentivizing dungeon spamming.
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u/happyevil 27d ago edited 27d ago
no it's 25% about bots, and another 75% about boosting. Dungeon spamming with your friends isn't really an issue.
The two actual issues are:
1: Bots fly hacking into lucrative dungeons. If you spent any time in classic around popular ones like Mara, Strat, or DM you'd see it all the time. For those doing it for gold the xp drop doesn't do too much though.
2: Four people standing AFK while a 60 (possibly a bot) solo clears a route and then gets paid in what is likely RMT money.
The unfortunate side effect of this change is that people who just happen to prefer dungeons (actually playing them normally) can't really do that anymore effectively.
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u/ThatLeetGuy 27d ago
This suggestion would be a buff to the current design, with dungeons giving exp using their original values.
Dungeon grinding is also my favorite part of the game, but with new dungeons having been already added and more dungeons in the future, there's no reason why you can't farm one dungeon a few times and then move to the next dungeon and so on. You'd have hours of dungeon content available each day before you had to set foot outside to do a quest.
And we know why the bots aren't farming gold in dungeons on the beta. The level cap is 20. Why bot farm Deadmines for linen when you can fish in Tanaris?
I like farming raw gold though so I'm not entirely for the gold reduction.
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u/FordPrefec7 27d ago
Dungeons (except for the first run) are nerfed into the ground right now (with 90% of xp coming from quests). This is an alternative that would allow players to run dungeons multiple times (just not in quick succession).
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u/Sleipnirs 27d ago
Only the xp is nerfed.
And they did this because they want more people in the world than in dungeons when it comes to leveling. What you're suggesting will just bring all the bots back in the over world and piss everyone else even more. (all while making legit players not able to have their own spots for gold farming)
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u/Nordwald 27d ago
What exactly are we trying to preserve here?
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u/nykezztv 27d ago edited 27d ago
The reason to do a dungeon more than once
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u/Remaxtered 27d ago
Do it more than once since it's fun and you get loot you don't have. Outleveling the dungeon seems counter-productive.
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u/Derelictcairn 27d ago
Getting boosted in dungeons.
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u/Rustshitposter 27d ago
IMO if we’re trying to stop boosting just make it so if there is a player that isn’t getting XP / is too high level for the instance then nobody gets XP or it’s massively reduced. Then the only real boosting concern becomes BRD and the last stretch of dungeons.
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u/Healeah241 27d ago
Boosting, but I think spam too.
One of the issues when it comes to classic is the xp + the loot basically meant that dungeon spam was often the best choice for levelling. Wow, being a game about minmax/zug zug, meant that a lot of people would always prefer to dungeon spam even if it gets boring. (Something about how, given the opportunity, players would optimise the fun out of the game)
I think OPs suggestion is good, though make the drop more exponential than 10% each time. (Something like 10% on the second run, 30% third, 60% fourth etc.
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u/Lochen9 27d ago
Which is crazy when you think about it. In SoD we abandoned dungeon spamming in phase 3 to do the god awful Nightmare Incursions and hated it because it was the most efficient.
But now, doing each dungeon once for exp (which by the way is incredibly rewarding, you can get from 13 to 25 with FOUR dungeon runs on Horde in a couple of hours) as that is the most efficient and we complain about it.
It’s like we will only do the most efficient thing as long as it isn’t doing something fun like playing the damn game.
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u/Dahkron 27d ago
Some people dungeon spam because they dont want to fight 50k players in the open world for mob tags. Stop trying to make people play the game a certain way. Imagine if this was reversed and open world questing xp was nerfed because some players decided you should be dungeon leveling like they do instead of how you want to play.
No one is forcing you to do dungeons if you don't want to, so leave em alone for those who do.
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u/CaptainYaoiHands 27d ago
I hate this mindset. I like dungeon spamming for leveling. It's an alternative for when questing is boring and I need a break or the area I'm in is being crowded.
If Blizzard implements something like this, then when sharding and layers inevitably fails and I can't finish quests because of too many people, or when I'm just tired of doing vanilla quest chains for like the 30th time in my life, some stupid shit like this means I'm just going to stop playing the game, rather than having an alternative leveling path to keep going for the day.
Friction like this isn't going to magically make me look at the other options more favorably, it's going to make me look at the game itself LESS favorably.
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u/yourwifeisatowelmate 27d ago
This doesn't actually stop boosting lol. Instead of repeating the same dungeon, you just carry the players through every single dungeon and help them travel to each zone for prequests too. If anything, it just makes the boost more of a mentorship and adventure through out the world.
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u/5panks 27d ago
People want to get rid of the new Warcraft Forever system because it punishes them for just sitting in If and spamming Hot all day until they're ready to move to Deadmines.
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u/Lundetangen 27d ago
What is the problem with people farming the same dungeon?
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u/FarMasterpiece2 27d ago
people get a hard-on when they tell you how the game should be played. or anti-social people who can't get their own dungeon grinding group
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u/Fraggy_Muffin 27d ago
It’s people trying to force you to play how they think the game should be played
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u/Pandemona1738 27d ago
This should only work for boosting though, why should people not be able to play the game like they want too? Why can't they spam dungeons to get to 60?
Boosting being nerfed is fine though, the situation they have in anniversary fixes that with if someone in group is 5 levels higher or something its 50% less xp? Or this can be added too.
But to hinder people who want to do 1000000 dungeon runs to get to 60 over questing, who cares? Why are people being told how to play the game via questing only? You people are mad
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u/elgarcon 27d ago edited 27d ago
IMO, this sounds like it doesn't address the issue of dungeon spamming for leveling. I mean, instead of spamming one dungeon, they'll spam multiple dungeons. The proposed diminishing returns on XP/Gold will do nothing to deter this since it will still be lucrative enough to spam dungeons up to a point ... but by then, players will have leveled enough to spam a new set of dungeons (in a higher level bracket) ... which just leads same end result that the devs want to stop.
Personally, I would rather this be a legacy point feature. Call it "dungeon runner" ... Each level 60 character on the account increases XP gains from dungeons by 4% .. five total points they put into it ... up until about 20%.
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u/stonehaens 27d ago
Because they want to quest instead (which is fine) and they want you to do the same (which shows there's something wrong with them).
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u/Chronoblivion 27d ago
Some people don't find it fun at all but do it because it's optimal. They would rather deal with a few days of boring grinding for faster xp than fight for tags in an overcrowded overworld or miss the opportunities that open up from being ahead of the curve.
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u/novak_47 27d ago
What counts as a clear? Just ignore last boss and stay at full xp