Dating app conversations are terrible. I ask questions about them but get vague, low info answers back. I try to thread the needle between inquiring about their life but not being overbearing or asking too many questions. I try bread crumbing info about myself to give them an opportunity to ask about my life, but they don’t take it or show any interest.

It’s been extremely frustrating, to the point where I thought I’d burn some money and just try talking with OnlyFans girls. After all, if I’m literally paying them to talk to me, surely they’ll put a little bit of effort into the conversation right? I tipped to start a convo and here’s approximately how it went:

Her: where are you from

Me: I’m from [state], how about you?

Her: I’m from the southern east coast

Me: cool, I’ve been to Florida and Virginia but never anywhere between. South Carolina is on my bucket list though. Do you like where you live?

Her: I don’t tbh, I’d love to move someday

Me: anywhere in particular you’d like to move? New England, PNW, Hawaii?

Her: realistically probably Florida. Fantasy def Hawaii

Me: yeah I lived in Honolulu for a bit, it’s really nice but really expensive. The only part of Florida I’ve been is Miami and it seems like a fun place to live!

Her: I’ve been to miami, it’s nice to visit I definitely wouldn’t live there tho

Me: [tipping] Hope this helps with your future move, thanks for the chat

Now this is honestly better than most conversations I have with women but even so, I still feel like I’m the only one trying to keep things going. I feel like I’m doing something wrong, like there’s a vibe that just wafts off of my messages that women find repulsive, but I can’t identify it. And I know this has nothing to do with looks because I don’t have a profile picture on OF. So can anyone help me? What is it that im doing wrong? I’m trying not to feel misogynistic but when stuff like this happens it just gets so easy to feel bitter towards women. Any help?

Good day, I come from a Nigerian immigrant family, dating was something that was taboo in my household all of a sudden till my 21st birthday. For personal reasons I have giving up on dating, everything my parents bring it up it always pisses me off, and these are immigrant parents so you can't tell it to them straight, if anyone has a similar experience or background i could really use some advice

This started all the way back in 2020, due to the pandemic. I've had a crush in my class who I've barely had time to spend with, before the lockdowns started. We stayed in contact online during the lockdown, and I've asked her if she's interested in meeting and she said yes, but we couldn't meet yet due to covid restrictions.

However, the lockdown made me depressive and that led to me losing her, causing the meeting to never happen. If covid never happened, the meeting would've worked out.

Once the schools re-opened, I was forced to talk to classmates despite rising covid cases and that caused me to develop a very hypocritical feeling. Why wasn't I allowed to meet the person important to me when cases were low, but when cases are higher, no one cares?

That made me uncomfortable and I developed a feeling called derealization. Only online friends were now comfortable to talk to, and meeting up the same way as it would've happened with the first crush.

From then on, I kept making new online friends. However, something always happened that the meeting didn't work out:

2nd girl (2021): Was down to meet but her parents were against it, and deleted all her social media

3rd girl (2021-2022): This one was questionable as I was 14 and she was 21, but I asked her if she was interested in meeting and she said yes, then later backed out last minute causing me to be very suicidal, and she accused me of gaslighting and manipulating her with my loneliness/health issues to meet up with her. She also said she "only said yes bc that's what (you) wanted to hear", so she lied to me over months and gave me false hope.

4th time was similar to the 2nd, 5th time started disliking me after hearing about my past, 6th time was parents, 7th time was a relationship but her getting jealous bc I kept thinking about a closer friend who wanted to meet, 8th time due to my growing health issues, 9th time because of their trust issues.

And this is only counting the times I was blocked, there have been at least 30 or more meeting attempts that never worked out. I even went to someone's city once, flew to another country, just for her to not show up. Said she'd make it up to me, next time excuses again just for me to get sick after as well, nowadays not responding to meeting messages.

The main point is: People keep cancelling meetings, saying they don't owe me meetings, I'm starving without human contact and say I don't deserve it; I stopped feeling human and developed derealization, everything that isn't from online feels fake, and things never work out.

I've never considered myself an incel even tho I've heard of the term, but looking more into it it seems very similar to my experiences, just that mine isn't sex-related and started before I even knew what sex is. However, I still think it's very similar bc sex can't happen without a meeting, and if even a meeting is denied, then what can you do.

In general I agree that sex isn't owed, but I would raise the point that meetings/human contact in some form are owed, bc if you believe it isn't, it could very quickly fall down a slippery slope about "food isn't owed" etc. Imo, if you don't wanna meet, just say it, but don't fool me, I'd accept it, but those who agree should go through with it

How do I get out of this situation

It’s really really hard not to fall into the incel way of thinking again. It’s been a while since I’m thinking like this. Solid year or two. Good news is I know it’s OCD but while we’re processing my obsessive thoughts I just wanted to make a post here because yall help a lot.

I just had a really really bad day. My only friend (who I’ve only met online mind you) who I thought actually cared about me turned out to just be using me for money. I’m just so lonely that anybody that even gives me the time of day I’ll attach to and care for unconditionally and somebody abused that.

So now I just have no friends and my soul is crushed. The only person who I thought understood me was just following along with me and my quirks because they thought it was funny to toy with me and send screenshots of our convos for other people to mock.

They pointed out so many things wrong with me fundamentally and I don’t know how to come back from this. I want to be in a relationship for the first time yet I have so many things wrong with me. I know this is a common excuse or whatever but I’m really really neurodivergent and people kinda just don’t like me even though I’m not problematic or an asshole. I get told I’m funny and kind a lot but that doesn’t transfer over to forming relationships with others.

Which is okay because everyone has the right to choose who they do and don’t talk to. I’m not angry at them, I’m angry at myself for not being able to do what others can do and blend in so naturally with people.

And that’s a scary thought. I want to love and care and provide for people and be there for them but I feel like I just can’t because I’m just broken. All I want to do is love somebody the most out of anyone and that usually means I have to be loved too.

So I have a problem because as of like a couple months I've been trying to be more social and go to more events and stuff. People when I show up at these events seem to like me! I can make people laugh and when I go to the social events for the political org im a part of people think im well educated and knowledgeable about topics.

But the problem is that I dont really know how to expand that into Friendship even if I get their contact info. I feel awkward or like im bothering them and I dont even know what to say. Like we met each other once at a social event where many people were there. Am I supposed to then ask a random person who met me in a group setting and is probably a little older than me (Im in college) to hang out 1on1? That feels for some reason strange.

And when it comes to women I really dont know what to do in that regard. I was at a music festival and saw one woman who caught my eye and I wanted to talk to. But I didnt because what am I going to say? I found her attractive and I know a music festival is social in nature but I felt like I would be intruding on her night. (I did force myself to talk to this one group of like 3 friends and that was a cool experience but I didnt get their social medias or anything.)

I just feel like there's a wall between me and other people who arent already my friend group. Especially when it comes to women that I find attractive as I at best feel like I have no valid "excuse" to talk to them or that at worst I feel "creepy" because my interest in talking to them is rooted in finding them physically attractive. I understand that this mindset is a kind of Secular Puritanism in a way but in the moment when I'm presented with the option to talk its for some reason very convincing to my brain.

Want to share one win I had recently though in regards to this at college. I went up to this one woman in my class and we had a brief interaction where I said I loved her glasses and she seemed to light up and smile and it seemed like I could talk with her more but I excused myself rather quickly because I wanted to go home after my last class. Its a small win but its proof that the idea I have of a woman being really disturbed by my mere presence is a lie I tell myself. I just dont know how to get better at this.

Heads up: I am from India

I turned 22 a month or so ago, and my life is absolutely miserable.

I used to be an anxious, socially awkward fat piece of shit in uni. To the point that I would avoid people I knew just because I didn't know how to greet someone and talk to them.

But in the last year and a half of uni, I took charge. I went to the gym, lost 13 kgs, and gained muscle. I was still the same when it came to confidence and anxiety, though.

Before starting my first job in Bengaluru in January, I promised myself that my life from here on would be different. I started taking care of myself, focusing on skincare, the clothes I wear, and the gym. I also tried to be more socially outgoing and meet new people.

This social persona has drained me a lot.

I started liking a girl at work. She's opinionated, smart, funny, hardworking, and pretty. I got over my fear and asked her out. She said yes, we went on a date, and I got rejected on that date itself. In the subsequent weeks, I had to see her propose to another colleague and then get back with her ex.

All this brought back a lot of insecurities and ruined my mental health for a long time. I'm still not over her. I know this sounds pathetic and like a cliche.

Dating apps have been a total humiliation ritual due to the absolute silence.

The only thing pushing me every single day was work.

I also made my parents courier my tabla from home so that I could distract myself. I started learning again after a gap of 5 years. It was the only thing I enjoyed apart from the gym. I could play for 2–3 hours nonstop.

This social mask was exhausting. It did work, and I've made friends here, but I can't ever be vulnerable with anyone. I just end up being a trauma dump for people.

I was really looking forward to spending time with my childhood friends this month for a week long Indian festival. Most of them were coming back from different parts of the country, and I was hoping we'd hang out and have a lot of fun.

I did get to spend some time with them, but even that brought up a lot of insecurities. Most of my friends are in healthy, happy relationships, and seeing them together made me feel even worse about my own situation. They also keep telling me things like, "When are you ever going to get into a relationship? You don't even try, blah blah blah". I know they probably mean well, but it's exhausting having to hear that when I'm already struggling with these feelings.

I was also supposed to play the tabla at an event this month. I'd been practising for it.

But one night, I went to bed and couldn't get back up. Turns out I have a herniated disc in my spine. I spent the next three days, which were the main days of the festival , lying in bed like a loser.

One thing I'm grateful for is that my friends came over multiple times every day to hang out with me.

I still can't walk to take a shit or shower by myself. I had to go to the hospital for a doctor's appointment on a stretcher in an ambulance.

It was so embarrassing.

My company treats its employees really well, so I was easily able to get a month's WFH extension from my manager.

I'll probably be able to walk in a week or so, but I probably won't be able to go to the gym for the next 1–2 years, and I'll end up fat again.

My life is falling apart. I cry myself to sleep every single day. I absolutely hate my miserable existence, and nothing ever goes my way.

TL;DR:Turned 22, tried to turn my life around by working on myself, getting fit, making friends, and putting myself out there. Got rejected by a girl I liked, which brought back a lot of insecurities. Seeing most of my friends in happy relationships made me feel even worse, especially when they kept asking me when I'd get into a relationship. Tabla and the gym were the only things keeping me going, and now I've herniated a disc in my spine and can't even take care of myself. I've spent days stuck in bed, and I feel like my life is falling apart.

Long story short: She met someone she wants to date seriously, which means we can’t be FWBs anymore.

Am I going to miss the best sex I’ve ever had with no strings attached? Absolutely.

On the other hand, I’m also kind of happy for her. I mean, we enjoy spending time together, but she’s 13 years older than me and I’d never want to date her. I imagine she feels the same way about me.

I also know that she would prefer having a real relationship over an FWB though, so it only makes sense that this is what happens when she finally meets someone she likes that feels the same way.

So yeah, obviously I’m going to miss having an FWB. But this whole thing has really boosted my confidence and I feel like it’s exactly what I needed at this point in my life even if It didn’t last as long as I was hoping.

I honestly don’t know what my next step is. I guess I could try the apps and look for another FWB there, but more likely I’ll just kinda live my life and hope I find one more naturally. My band has a few big shows coming up so I’ve got plenty to keep me busy.

I don’t even know if it makes sense to post on this sub anymore, but I like doing it and maybe it will inspire someone else. So until one of the mods tells me to stop (and I’m sure they will eventually) I’m going to do it every now and again.

M22. I would really like to find a girlfriend. Her appearance and age don’t matter to me at all (I’m open to a very wide range, from 18 to 40). I just want to be loved. I dream of building a life together, having cozy evenings, spending time side-by-side—I want to feel someone’s loving gaze upon me. I crave physical, tactile connection.

I’ve been in relationships before, but they were purely platonic. I have no experience living with a girlfriend, and I am still a virgin. Furthermore, each of those past relationships felt like a godsend to me.

I am a socially active person; my hobbies include historical reenactment, board games, voice acting, and involvement in social and political activities.

I have tried various approaches to dating, but nothing seems to work. One recurring mistake I’ve identified is my inability to find the right balance between showing initiative and being intrusive. Too little initiative leads straight to the friend zone, while too much initiative causes a womans to lose interest and reject me.

Right now, I am in a very emotionally low state. I have become hyper-fixated on finding a relationship. I find myself envying couples I see on the street, as well as friends who are married, living with their partners, or planning to get married.

I’m not sure how this subreddit might be able to help me. I probably just need to vent. That said, if there are any women among the members here who are also chronically lonely ("femcels"), I’d be open to getting to know one another and chatting.

Everytime i see a cute couple outside I just cant help but wonder "where did they even find each other". So yeah, do you guys think it would be weird if i asked people that? I just dont know where to look anymore.

I'm a 25-year-old virgin who was bullied by girls in school for being ugly, and over time, I started developing a deep hatred toward women. It's gotten to the point where I experience involuntary anger reactions and even physical tics when talking to women, and it's starting to interfere with my adult life.

I know I’m not entitled to sex, and I’m not saying women owe me anything. I understand that. But this hatred is something I can’t simply choose not to feel, and I genuinely want to find a way to deal with it.

I've even considered hiring a sex worker as a last resort, hoping that having my first sexual experience might somehow help me feel better about myself or change the way I feel.

I don't want to keep living with this anger, but I don't know how to get past it. Has anyone experienced something similar? How can I work through these feelings and stop letting my past experiences affect the way I interact with women today?

I've (31M) been trying to date and have had very limited success, but I have found who I think is reasonable to assume the only woman alive who is attracted to me. I have gone on three dates with her and she still wants to keep seeing me and honestly it's the best i've ever felt. However I have received some advice from my older sister that I am kinda back and forth on.

She asked me what I liked about her, and there are a few personal qualities I like about her, she's funny, she's nice to me, and she likes me. I showed my sister a picture of her and she asked if I found her physically attractive. I told her I didn't which is an honest answer. I don't really find myself physically interested in her. I however don't really care. She likes me and it'd be stupid if I threw away my once chance at love because I'm not physically interested in her. She asked me about other qualities, do we share interests, are we the same religion, same political alignment and a few other compatibility things, and the answer was pretty much no to all of them, but honestly I am willing to change all of those things about myself if she wanted me to. I don't really care. I am the happiest I have ever been in years and I don't want to throw it all away.

She said I was settling and honestly, yeah. In a perfect world I'd be with someone who I was compatible with and attracted to but that woman doesn't exist. So why would I turn down the best option available to me. She doesn't get it and said it's better to be alone than with someone I don't gel with and I think that's a load of bullshit tbh. She likes me and that's what most important. It feels like she wants me to be alone for the rest of my life because that is literally the only other alternative.

I don't see the issue in what I'm doing, so I'd figure I'd ask some other people. It just doesn't make sense to me to throw away my first and probably only chance over shit that's trivial.

I would consider myself to be antisex, and I think it's a good antidote to anyone feeling unhappy about their current conditions. Once you become antisex, you realize that sex isn't good, and is actually a net-negative. It's like a weight is being lifted off your shoulders. While society says sex is a good thing, I've reached the opposite conclusion, and I think becoming antisex could help alot of you.

The main reasons I'm antisex is because: I think it's inherently animalistic and I'd feel degraded if I did it. I find it somewhat repulsive because it's sharing bodily fluids. Then there's the effects on society, such as jealousy, STDs, and unplanned pregnances.

For clarity sake I don't believe in the black pill at all. Obviously there's much more to people's attraction then, looks alone that's pretty simple to understand for me. But when I get questions about my hands at the gym or a social event I go to, it makes me really question if appearance does matter a small bit.

I understand we get a lot of Incels here who lie, about the time that people think about their appearance, but this week alone I've had three guys come up to me in the, middle of my workout to ask me "what's wrong with my hands". I honestly thought this didn't happen in reality. Like I understand they were probably just worried for me because my hands are kinda disfigured through my own stupid actions, but I thought most people minded their own business.

I know this kinda sounds like a vent , but it's not. I need to ask what to do in this situation, and if this is really that common, or that ive just been really unlucky this week lol.

I have been using Hinge for the last few month now. I surprisingly don't have that much of an issue getting matches, but I do have issues getting dates.

I get maybe 5 matches in a week which is cool but I hit an issue after. Usually its that the woman just doesn't respond. Sometimes it's responding for about a day or two before just unmatching or not responding. Sometimes we have 2 or 3 days of a good back and forth, have mutual interests and then when I finally ask her out she doesn't respond. The worst by far is when we actually plan the date and the day before the date or day of, sometimes hour of they just don't respond. I live an hour out from a major city (Boston) where I set my Hinge location to so it's a bit out of my way to even try to date them.

Tonight I had a dinner date set up with a girl, texted her this morning, she was on, texted her an hour out, still good. Get to the location and she never showed or ever texted back. It makes me feel like shit. Especially when I'm able to guess that the reason she no showed even earlier on, just stopped talking to me when I try to set a date, is because they matched with or met a hotter guy and just tossed me to the side. It reminds me that in dating all of the power is pretty much in the woman's hands. I have pretty much zero say in if I ever have sex, get a girlfriend or date. I have literally zero control.

I know this to be true, and I try to not get incelly about it, it's just the way nature works. Women are the gatekeepers of romantic relationships and men have to compete for the limited supply of love in this world if we ever want a chance. I just don't know why I am viewed as so low value that most women would just ditch me the second I express interest in a date when they've already matched with me and enjoyed talking to me enough over the course of multiple days.

I feel so defeated and I don't know how not to. It's so hard to not because I know that if I was more physically attractive or desirable, this wouldn't be happening and I'd have a chance at love. I don't even want to be one of those guys that only wants to be hot just to hook up with a bunch of women. I just want to experience romantic love but I'm constantly being deemed so unworthy that I can't even get a woman to show up to a date she already said she'd want to go on.

This has happened like 4 times in the last 2 months. I want to not feel this way, but it feels like any explanation other than what I said above is just cope.

So, I’m trying everything I can to improve. I’m cooking all of my meals, going to the gym, going out to events when I can, and saving money to spend on hobbies and the tattoos I’ve wanted. It’s difficult and I’m not doing as much as I want, though. Building new habits is hard, but my main issue now is that there’s a near-constant inner-monologue bent on sabotaging me when I try to do anything other than smoke weed and play video games alone in my apartment.

I wouldn’t say it’s new, but it’s now constant and it’s making things a lot harder than they should be. Has anybody experienced this? If so, how do you drown it out?

So theres this girl im friends with, we talk pretty regularly and get along well, today I spotted her and walked up with my arms outstretched like a fucking pleb and said "wheres my hug at?". I thought I was just being playful but looking back it sounds kinda creepy.

And its not just this, sometimes I catch myself making flirty jokes or overthinking small interactions with her, and im starting to wonder if I come across as some desperate guy who cant just be friends with a girl. I dont want to make her uncomfortable or make her think I expect anything from her just because we're friends.

I think ive picked up some bad habits from the internet and im struggling to tell the difference between being friendly and being weird. what are some things to correct myself on this behaviour and make it clear im not like that

I dont know what they're going say, I sent a text. I only met them once and maybe she was just friendly. If i was a mind reader i would've known for sure and acted accordingly. even now my brain is panicking and catastrophizing. Not really about being rejected, I will be fine with that I think maybe i even expect it more. but the fear is about being thought less of for asking someone out. Maybe I have shame around my desires even though I am respectful to people. I used to not even talk to anyone usually if I could avoid it so yeah.
Oh also i definitely spent way too long draft a 2 line message lmao. as if the exact words are going to change someones mind.

well despite all these criticisms i think its reasonable to consider this to be a good thing regardless of the outcome? albeit i am in my mid 20s but hey. Alright that's it for now. maybe i should get a cupcake for myself :p

My friends are all normal guys (mostly). They date around, women are interested in them, they have "dry spells" but like those are a couple of months. They have no idea what it's like to be fully and completely undesirable.

When I talk to them about rejection, I talk to them about constant rejection. They talk to me about going home alone at the end of a night. The difference is, that's not them all the time.

When I talk about romantic loneliness, they talk about dating a girl for a few weeks and it not working out. I talk about having to come to terms with the reality that I actually may never even so much as go on a singular date with a woman.

When I talk to them about feeling unattractive, they talk about when a woman who's fat or maybe isn't the most physically attractive hits on them, when beautiful women reject them, but they still go on dates and hookup with decently attractive women. But I mean never receiving a compliment in my life and never once ever having a woman attracted to me.

I try to be open, get their perspectives and advice, but it's stuff that can work for them because they're tall and moderately good looking. It's really disheartening because we all are pretty similar. I'm not uniquely less socially adept then them, I am not neurotic or awkward just like them. I'm in better shape than one or two of them. The only major differences I see is just the way we look.

I know women aren't a monolith, but we define conventional attractiveness because we all acknowledge there are traits that are widely by most people considered to be attractive. The same with men. There are features most men are gonna find attractive and if women don't have them they're gonna be in a position like i am unfortunately.

They just really don't understand and I feel like I'm speaking a different language entirely. My friends that are women are better at some aspects, but they really don't get what it's like to date as a man just like how I don't really understand what it's like to date as a woman. It's not their fault, it's not anyone's fault that I'm so far outside of the norm. It's just feels so isolating and I don't know what to do.

I'm 23M, 5'7, probably slightly ND, and I don't really have any good friends.

I make $30 an hour. I do calisthenics as a hobby, but I barely have time. However, maybe just a few hours on the weekend. How can I get into a relationship atp without ever being in one and having 0 dating experience.

From my observations it feels like society tends to socially outcast lonely young men and treat them like shit. But in my opinion that basically creates a self fulfilling prophecy that affirms what these forums are saying to them.

What were the main factors that drove you down that pipeline? And what led you to leave that community behind and change your mindset around the modern dating landscape?

My friends call me a incel because im a virgin and don't have a gf. They just figured out what this word means a couple of months ago and yea I'm technically a incel but they keep using it as a insult instead of a proper term. Then again how is it my fault? Like what do people expect me to do? I'm not in college, I work most of the day then come home and go to bed usually. I have no other friends rather then those that just insult me. How do people expect me to get a gf either way and as well as my stats.

Hi. This is something I really need help with and I'm realizing other online sources for advice tend to skew very incelly and that's something I'm trying to avoid.

I'm 27, never dated, had sex, or kissed anyone. Not for lack of effort. I grew up pretty afraid to ever ask a woman out or talk to a woman who didn't speak to me first because I thought it would make them uncomfortable. Around 22 I started. My biggest issues have always been my social skills and I think my appearance. I'm not tall or particularly handsome, never had a girl take a physical interest in me or find me attractive. It really gets to me at times and I feel undesirable. I struggled socially through most of college but really came out of my shell my senior year and developed. I thought that would solve my dating problems, but it really only solved my friendship problems which I'm grateful for, but it's not like I didn't have friends so I still feel at square one.

I have been meeting a lot of women through clubs and intermural sports at my gym. I take classes at the local community college and have made a lot of friends and met a lot of women this way. It just feels like whenever I meet them I'm immediately in the friend box and never in the romantic box. I've asked out a LOT of women. At one point I just kind of told myself "well, if it's a numbers game I just need to keep getting numbers up and eventually one girl has to like me" and it's just not happened. I feel so fundamentally undesirable and unattractive all the time.

I've taken short breaks and longer ones to work on myself before putting myself back out there and then it inevitably leads to more and more rejection. I feel like at this rate it's just proven I'm unlovable like I felt like throughout college and high school.

I want to feel better, I really do, but this is so draining and demoralizing and I don't know what else I can do about it.

I used to be a pretty bright and sensitive kid, I had a good home life and a sunny disposition. Then I hit high school, puberty happens, insecurity crept in, ect. It wasn't long before I found myself in a lot of nasty online spaces and at first it felt cathartic, but I didn't have the foresight to see I was heading into a perpetuating cycle of negativity. Before long it became a chicken/egg thing where my feelings of being unlikeable, made me unlikeable, which then made me actually off putting to people, which reinforced my feelings, and so on and so forth. It didn't even matter that I was well liked by other kids in my cohort or my family life was fine, I didn't have the experience or maturity to see things outside that framework. I fell into cynicism, defeatism, misanthropy, porn addiction, the works.

Next thing I know, I'm pushing 30 with over a decade in this negative feedback loop. It's only recently I've been somewhat seeing things differently or trying to challenge myself to push back on those thoughts. Sometimes it feels like I'm making progress and then others I slip back into that mindset.

Because of those lapses a very real fear is growing in me that I may never never be able to get back to who I was. Like, I can't go back and undo all the damage I did to myself, the way I betrayed myself. I can't get those years and opportunities back, I can't unsee or unhear or unlearn what has been my "truth" for so long and pretend it never shaped my thoughts. Even if things change now, I still lost my entire youth to this, and even if I can start to heal that wound might never go away.

So where does that leave me? Have I damaged my potential to be good, and do good? To become happy and fulfilled? What if I spend years of effort to over come years of damage to just be a diminished version of what I could have been? Will I always just he a maimed and marred person? Not all suffering makes you wiser or more resilient, a lot of times it's just loss. This fear is gripping me so fully that it makes me want to just stop all together. It makes these first steps feel so meagre and almost embarrassing.

Is it truly worth all the time, and effort, and struggle, if you cannot recover who you were?

And I know how fucking neurotic and stupid that sounds. Especially coming from someone who should be grateful for being found attractive in anyway and being told so, and who probably doesn't even have an attractive personality to begin with.

I hate myself for feeling that way, I have the self awareness to acknowledge that but not the maturity to even want to change it.

But truly, does nobody else feel that way? Like obviously, I'm not just going around lashing out at people whenever they tell me they like x about me or that I did y, that's of course nice to hear from people in everyday contexts. But the idea that if I ever wanted to be seen in a romantic light, it could only be for my personality and not my body or face just causes me deep, deep angst.

I get that people generally want to be loved for who they are rather than something beyond their control. I get that people can find somebody's appearance attractive after finding their personality attractive (which I would hate just as much if it were the only way for somebody to see me in a romantic light. And for the purpose of this post is essentially the same topic) but if I ever had a romantic partner, I would crave that they genuinely found at least one feature about my body or face attractive in its own right, not related to how they perceived my personality prior but just as is, just as a physical reaction to how my body looks. What's even the romantic part about liking someone's personality and not/before their appearance? What the hell is the difference from just being friends with that person? I like my friends and family but it's never going to make me see them any differently physically, or in a romantic light, obviously. What do people even mean by that and why can't I experience romantic attraction the same way? It makes me feel like people who say things like that are lying and I hate assuming they'd lie about something like that

I get that looks fade and there'd have to be more to a person for them to maintain a relationship, but I'd love for at least a portion of any possible romantic relationship I could be in to have a phase and the memory afterwards of mutual physical admiration and desirability. And why don't people ever bring up how personality is also as subject to change as looks are. Plus there's only so much an 'ugly' person can do to change their appearance, but the ways in which an attractive person can grow and develop their personality is just as open ended and limitless as anyone else's.

Does nobody else except ugly incels like myself feel that way? Am I just deeply depraved and fundamentally misguided on what romance is and should feel like?