I'm talking about the religion not what the Sikh community is doing today.

Is there sexist stuff in Guru Granth Sahib?

Did sikh gurus make sexist statements?

And no, I'm not talking about dasam Granth. Only Guru Granth Sahib.

You might say all the gurus were men, which shows the patriarchal nature of Sikhism but I don't find this argument convincing. There's another statement in the Guru Granth that says God is a husband, something like this. Then there is this famous verse, " why call a woman bad, from whom kings are born". This verse has been criticised for reducing a woman to her birthing ability.

However I find none of these statements sexist.

Sexism is more deep. For example, Manusmriti says a woman can never be independent.

I repeat, I want to know if the gurus were sexist or the Guru Granth Sahib has sexist passages. Not the Sikh community's actions today. I know followers actions today can't be separated from the religion. But that's a discussion we can have some other day.

In this thread, let's just focus on what I have asked.

Used to respect this guy growing up & watching Gian Da Sagar every morning. He was knowledgable no doubt, but his biases are becoming hard to ignore. Imagine blaming women for 99% of broken homes!

I used to ask this question a lot growing up but forgot about it.

I’ve heard nails used to get worn down from daily use but now they get in the way. If the rule is grooming things that get in the way is okay, I should be allowed to cut my hair if i feel it interferes with my life.

Ive heard it’s just Gods hukam or a uniform. Then accept that your standard is blind religious obedience, and don’t talk badly about Hindus about their rituals, for example.

I was initially planning to ask this on the Sikh sub, but I backtracked and decided to ask it here instead.

Why do men bathe in their underwear in the Amrit Sarovar at the Golden Temple, while women bathe in a separate, hidden space and are expected to remain fully clothed?

At Ganga ghat, men and women often bathe together. In theory, Sikhism strongly emphasizes gender equality, but it seems that patriarchal cultural norms have still influenced certain practices within the Sikh community.

If men are allowed to bathe in their underwear, women should be allowed to do the same in the same space, even if that means wearing a bikini. You might argue that women could be harassed or stared at, but that is a problem with the behaviour of the men, not with the women. Women should not have to restrict themselves or modify their behaviour because some men might harass or stare at them.

Whenever I would tell friends that I stopped believing in Sikhi, they would always make me feel guilty, almost like I betrayed our people. I never really knew how to respond until recently when I came upon the notion that belief is not a choice. I learned about it from YouTuber jon cohen.

Belief is not a choice that we make but rather something that happens to us. The evidence either convinces you, or it doesn’t - but it’s not something you consciously choose. The same way you don’t decide to be frightened and you don’t choose to find a joke funny. You can’t tell someone an unfunny joke and tell them “decide to find this funny”.

This doesn’t mean that we’re entirely passive bystanders in the formation of our beliefs. We can decide to take actions that change our beliefs such as being open minded, studying, and asking questions…but these things may or may not lead to a change in belief.

I have read Gurbani, gone to Sunday/khalsa school, done naam simran, listen to lectures, debated with Sikhs and drum roll…the evidence does not convince me. I cannot choose to believe convinced by bad arguments.

I cannot choose to believe in Sikhism anymore than a Sikh can decide to stop believing. Even if someone held a gun to your head and said “believe that’s the moon is made out of cheese or I’ll shoot you”. You could lie, but you still couldn’t decide to believe.

Bored out of my mind, so I'm thinking of helping everyone out with debunks to 5 common talking points you may hear or be pestered with as an ex-Sikh.

1) "Sikhism is not a religion. It's a way of life."

Now, this might be the absolute, most meaningless statement I have ever heard from Sikhs and unfortunately, it's gaining a lot of traction these days. The sentiment was born out of a need to separate the religion from the concrete truth claims that it makes. The whole idea is that if you obfuscate the claims of the religion enough, you no longer have to defend them.

The objection to this is clear: Sikhism is OBVIOUSLY a religion in every single sense of the word. It makes theological and concrete claims about one god that created the universe, the existence of souls, reincarnation, and much, much more. It also has its own rites and rituals, central religious text, code of conduct, and prayer requirements for the baptised. So, any sikh who acts like sikhi is JUST a philosophy and not a religion, has absolutely no idea what they're talking about and is simply regurgitating what they've heard because they liked how it sounds.

2) "It's the culture/people, not the religion."

When I see many ex sikhs express their negative experiences with Sikhi in their own lives, that may have led up to them distancing themselves from the faith, whether that's experiencing casteism, misogyny or otherwise, Sikhs will often be incredibly dismissive and reply with this exact sentiment: "don't blame the religion for the failure of the people". However, besides having 0 tact or empathy, what these people fail to realise is that a person's experience with a religion isn't limited to purely the understanding of the scripture. The majority of their experience will actually be THROUGH the people, with how their family members behave, what theology they hold, their experiences at their local gurdwara, what parcharaks and kathavachaks around them are saying, etc.

Essentially, being at odds with every bit of how a religion is practiced and preached, such that it's detrimental to your life and wellbeing, is absolutely a valid reason for distancing yourself from, or even leaving the religion, and you should never let any dismissive idiot tell you otherwise.

3) "You just didn't try hard/sincerely enough to experience God"

This one is utterly infuriating, because someone who has no idea what you've personally been through or tried in terms of reaching out to god, or experiencing god is telling YOU that you were never truly sincere in your heart. For those who don't know about fallacious arguments, this is a "no true scotsman," essentially "no TRUE devotee would be denied darshan by god" The reason its fallacious, is because it arbitrarily calls your own faith as "insincere" to allow them to dodge your counter-example demonstrating that God does NOT show themselves to someone/guide them for simply being sincere and asking.

4) "You only left so you could break the rules"

Honestly, this is the most disgusting point used against ex-sikhs and people who leave any faith, because it assumes that the only reason people would leave the faith is not because you don't believe in the claims anymore, but instead because they are evil sinners lost in degerenerate desires, and want to be able to do evil freely. The funniest counter example to this is simply to point at the countless amritdharis that despite being part of the faith and still believing in god, commit just about every degenerate act you could possibly think of. But a better counter example would be people that left, and gained even more strict personal moral rules, a key example would be ex sikh vegans like myself: if ex sikhs all just leave so they can take part in negative things and sins, then why on earth would anyone that left the faith impose an even more strict ethical requirement on their lives than they had as sikhs?

5) "The GGS isn't literal. It's metaphorical/poetic writing."

Although much of the GGS is in fact, esoteric and metaphorical nature, to act like it doesn't make concrete theological claims about the existence of souls, karma, reincarnarion, creation, the existence of a god and the nature of that god, or literal claims about reality, is utterly meaningless. Many sikhs will often tell ex-sikhs that find problems with the GGS, whether that's scientific inaccuracy or morally questionable verses, that "it's not a scientific text in nature and therefore treating it as such is wrong." The reality is that although many verses are in fact not literal and are retellings of myths, or simply devotional metaphors, there is also no shortage of concrete claims in the GGS either, and when these claims are verified in context as actual claims about reality and not metaphors, this copout simply no longer works. One example is the GGS talking about the universe and our bodies literally being made of 5 elements, "fire, earth, water, air and aether" which is an age old concept, but absolutely wrong none the less, instances like these immediately disprove any version of sikhi that holds the gurus to be omniscient, or literally god in the flesh, as no all knowing god would knowingly include falsehoods in their main sacred text.

Just a thought, if karamaat can be done by a spiritual person how did these guys have that power, baba ram rai wasn’t even seen in a good character historically. These both never became gurus and were thrown out or punished by the gurus for their actions. But then how did they gain powers? Something travelling within families? And if yes , what?

Some ramblings:

-I’m supposed to believe God revealed the universal truth through 10 dudes from one region in one part of the world, several belonging to the same caste and even same family? To me, that raises the same questions as royal families claiming a God-given right to rule.

-Sikhism the religion of empowering women. How many women have performed kirtan at the Golden temple? 1...2? I love how the rehat marayada tells girls when they should get married and to who, but makes no such recommendations for boys. Most religions, including sikhism, are not women friendly at all. That's just a myth

-Sikhism looks like a product of its surroundings. Its language, clothing, music, and symbolism reflect the culture it emerged from. Why should I interpret those cultural features as God’s universal preferences? If the Gurus had emerged in Mexico, would we consider Spanish scripture and Mexican clothing sacred instead? Would we be wearing sombreros instead of Turbans? From the outside, what believers call divine often looks distinctly human.

-I was always told growing up that all religions lead to the same God. That's a nice feel good story but not logistically possible. If you're a Sikh who believes in reincarnation, that is incompatible with the Christian and Muslim belief of heaven and hell. If you're a Sikh who believes in heaven and hell, guess what, the bible says the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus and Muslims say the ONLY way to heaven is if you accept Islam. There are many contradictory beliefs, so does where you go after you die depend on where you were born...or is this all just some man made.

-My own pathway to becoming an atheist was when I was a kid and wanted to cut my hair but didn't want to betray God. I was told that all religions lead to the same God, so why couldn't I just pick an easier religion (lol) like Christianity so that I could cut my hair, eat meat, drink...and still go to heaven. Hell, if I was born to a different family I would be a christian, or muslim, or hindu? That's when I realized all these fairy tales are just man made stories.

That’s what eventually broke the spell for me: my faith depended heavily on where I happened to be born. I stopped seeing these rules as divine truths and started seeing them as human stories passed down as certainty.

i don't believe that, to a large extent, concerns about muslim grooming gangs in the uk are based in any genuine concern for the wellbeing and safety of sikh women.

this isnt to say that muslim men grooming sikh women is okay and nothing to be concerned about, or even that no one is ever genuinely concerned about this. but from having talked to many sikhs about this (from both uk and elsewhere) it really just seems as if many of these sikhs are being territorial over women. it's a fear of muslim men "taking our women" and anger/shame over that because it implies that sikh men are "losing" to muslim men. perhaps this is a result of women being viewed as their family's honour. sikh women being groomed isn't just about them as individuals, it's about the shame being brought to their family (esp the men) and community.

part of why i think this, other than the conversations i've had with sikhs, is the response to sexual abuse, grooming, misogyny taking place within the sikh community itself. when the kaur movement started, so many people were upset and even accused the founder of lying and making up stories to defame sikhs/punjabis. sexual abuse of sikh girls happening at gurdwaras is almost never talked about with the same anger and urgency as muslim grooming gangs. i was sexually abused as a young teen by a granthi at a big gurdwara in canada and my family's reaction was to keep it all quiet lest it "embarrass" our family. i know so many girls that were sexually abused at gurdwaras, at khalsa school, at sunday classes at gurdwaras, etc and the conversation is never as loud. ffs, i know of women that have been sexually harassed and abused in the parkarma of darbar sahib.

and it's honestly frustrating seeing people get upset about one thing but not the other, especially because tomorrow if all grooming of sikh women by muslim men stops we would still be facing sexual abuse within our own community. anyway im posting this here because this was a very big factor in me distancing myself from the sikh community, and sikhi itself.

title, pretty much.

I net my bio parents when I was 3 or 4 as I didn’t live with them. Anyhow, I had a bad childhood and it was quite abusive (mainly bio mother).

I am not Sikh but they are. I am an omnist so I believe every religions teachings hold wisdom and truth including Sikhism but I don’t follow the entire religion and identity as Sikh as I am omnist.

Anyhow, the crazy woman got a rishta for me or rishtas but ofc she is trying in her craziest of ways to set me up with the “rich guy with 5 houses, a pent house and multiple businesses”. Btw, I don’t care for the money ( I like men who are ambitious and business minded yes but not because of the money and I want to be in love and not just be with a guy because he’s rich or has money)

Anyhow, she is trying to do it for herself not so I have “a good life because in the culture what will people say is big and she wants to be known as the one who’s SIL is rich or whatever and thinks she will become rich by association . CRAZY

Anyhow, I am actively in the process of trying to escape her and this crazy life which is all I have known and this woman is actively trying to set me up with him and I have told her no for weeks but apparently she isn’t telling them that..

So this whole time, this psychopath is telling them yes and I am trying to be forced to meet with the guy who btw saw me before somewhere ( I have no idea who he is) and only wants me. Apparently they had multiple girls and they only want me? Like whaaaat, I don’t even know where you know me from or saw me from…

She keeps going and finding out places I go like when I go out and tries to set up a meeting while I am out which means she told the guy and his family yes I am assuming. It’s inanse. I told her I will go to the police if she continues because these types of things can get a girl harmed ( I don’t know these people and what if they feel like it’s disgraceful fro a girl who said yes( I didn’t but obviously my crazy bio mother might have tried to say that) and now feel like it’s shameful, some people in the community go far with that type of thing. I know this because my own bio family would probably try to harm me alongside my maternal relatives who I am NC with if I moved out and lived my life and went complete NC ( I am actively trying to do this rn. It’s so insane even my job knows and I have a safety plan for when I do).

So this lady is insane and has a R.O against her from my paternal aunt because my bio mother is insane but acts different around other desi people. My bio brother is also no contact and when she went to stalk him, he called me(we don’t talk really but told me what she did and how he will have to get a restraint order against her too).

Anyways, I am SO FRUSTRATED. She doesn’t understand no means no and is telling these people yes that I will agree to the arranged marriage( never in my years will I give her that power but she thinks otherwise). She also knows I am not Sikh and the guy is and thinks I will just pretend to be Sikh while with him (I don’t understand why she is crazy like this).

Has anybody experienced this as an ex Sikh particularly from family members/bio family ?

My life is already insane in so many ways, and this is just another reminder.

I am 22M from Gujarat India

I am very confused while writing this that how to explain my point here

I am Hindu born guy but I got impressed by Sikhism but i Am not praying and stuff and now from past 2-3 months I don't belive in god or stuff I just think I am atheist or agnostic who just want to live my life and don't need any community or anyone who control me.

Actually my family is very supportive when I said I want to be sikh and also now when I live as atheist. They don't presure me about anything and I am free to do anything.

I don't have any issues with Sikhism but i just don't like to pray and all and i don't want to represent any community

Here is Gujarat caste is something people wants to know which i hate but after my name change and when I say I am sikh they don't ask for caste much but then the sikh/punjabi stereotypes enters. If I say I am sikh ( to remove the caste questions ) they try to speak to me in Punjabi and expect full Punjabi behaviour ( which they saw in movies and songs ) which also I don't like.

What is my question? My question is about my identity and appearance.

People wants to know your caste, religion and from which community you belongs to here in India and atheist are not considered for that in India sadly

I feel the turban really suits me well and I look good in that

TURBAN BENEFITS

Looks good on me and I don't have to hide my hair loss ( it's little as of now )

No caste questions

TURBAN NAGATIVES

They think I am religious person who follows Sikhism ( don't have issues with Sikhism much but i Am not religious )

They think I am Punjabi guy who speaks Punjabi and I am over energetic guy who keep doing bhangda everyday in every situation

WITHOUT TURBAN

Without turban I am a Hindu guy for everyone with my punjabi/sikh style name and they keep asking my caste which i hate

AS A ATHEIST OR AGNOSTIC IS IT A GOOD IDEA TO WEAR A TURBAN

WHAT IS YOUR OPENING ON THIS

I recently started therapy and have only had three sessions. I like my therapist, and she’s been helpful with other things, but there’s one pretty major thing affecting my mental health that I haven’t been able to tell her.
I’m a Sikh guy, but I’m personally not very religious. My family is, though, and I’m currently financially dependent on them.
For the past few months, I’ve been struggling a lot with my appearance, specifically my hair and facial hair. Keeping your hair is obviously an important part of Sikhism, but I’ve realized that I genuinely don’t feel comfortable with or like how I look with mine. If it were entirely my decision and there were no consequences, I think I’d prefer having the freedom to explore lol.
This isn’t mainly about dating or wanting other people to find me attractive. Even taking other people out of the equation, **I don’t feel attractive to myself, and on the rare occasions when I do feel attractive or confident, I still definitely don’t feel comfortable. I also feel really restricted from doing basic stuff, which adds to my frustration with being Sikh.**
I’ve started going to the gym and working on the parts of my appearance I can control, which helps somewhat, but this is still constantly in the back of my mind. Talking to my family definitely doesn’t help.
The problem is that changing my hair/facial hair doesn’t feel like a normal appearance decision. It feels enormous because of my family, religion, and the fact that this has been part of my identity my entire life. I’m scared of how my family and friends would react, but I’m also scared of how *I* would feel afterward.
I have nothing against Sikhism or Sikh men who choose to keep their hair. It’s honestly pretty cool and def a responsibility. I genuinely love the teachings and values of Sikhism too, but I just don’t know if **I** want this restriction for myself, and feeling like I don’t have a choice is taking a toll on me.
I feel like I need to tell my therapist because this affects my self-image, my relationship with my family/religion, my sense of control over my own body, and my mental health. I’m not expecting her to tell me whether I should cut my hair. I’m not even sure if I want that, coz I’m def gon have a lotta issues after that, and it scares me honestly. I want help figuring out what *I* actually want and dealing with the fear and guilt around it.
But I genuinely don’t know how to say this out loud.
My therapist is also Indian, which, for some reason, makes me more nervous about telling her. Part of me wonders if someone from a different country and cultural background would be easier to talk to. (I could have access to someone with a different background pretty easily, but I’m not sure if they’d even understand it properly. But it’s def scary with someone who’s also Indian lol.) At the same time, I genuinely like my therapist and don’t want to switch without even giving her the chance to respond.
**How do you bring up something with your therapist when you’re uncomfortable even saying it out loud?**
I genuinely feel uncomfortable talking bout this topic ngl, and idek why. It’s not my fault I feel all these things\~? Would it be okay to start with, “There’s something that’s affecting my mental health a lot, but I’m really uncomfortable talking about it”?
Preferably, would it be weird to write everything down beforehand or even show/send my therapist a link to this?
I’d especially appreciate hearing from anyone who has dealt with religious/family expectations around their appearance or identity in therapy.

**ADDING A BIT MORE INFO AFTER READING ALL THE ADVICE ✨**
Hey everyone, thank you so much for all the advicee!! It really does mean a lot to feel supported!
**TW: slight trauma dump / went a little off-topic 😭**
Heyy! Thank you so much for the advice!! I’ve been thinking about any way I could bring it up, and I’m realizing I’m really not good at communicating how I feel lmao. It’s so much easier to j say everything’s awesome and believe it once I say tht.
For some reason, I feel scared to bring this up with her directly. I’m kind of hoping it naturally comes up in conversation and then we can get into it from there lol. Because if I tell my therapist, “I’m scared to bring this up,” she’ll probably ask me why, and honestly, sometimes she asks me questions that I just don’t have answers to 😭
Like, she’ll ask something seemingly basic, like what emotion I felt in a certain situation, and I get so confused because sometimes I genuinely feel like I didn’t feel anything?? Or I’m just too embarrassed bout the emotion that I make myself believe I didn’t feel anything and tht it didn’t matter. And once I believe it—how am I supposed to tell someone else? When even *I* believe I didn’t feel anything?
But ofc there has to be an emotion, so then I start wondering if maybe I did feel something somewhere underneath and just couldn’t recognize it? Idk lol.
She’s also asked me to journal, keep a mood chart, and do a few other things between sessions, but I’ve been avoiding them because, for some reason, they feel like SO much work. I want to put effort into therapy, so I don’t really understand why I’m not actually doing these things. And she’s not, like, keeping a check, so I’m not held accountable lol 😭
And I’m scared to admit to my therapist that I haven’t been doing what she asked me to do. Part of me worries she’ll basically be like, “If you don’t cooperate or communicate with me, how are we supposed to move forward? Therapy is useless otherwise.” I know that might just be my anxiety imagining how she’ll react, but it still makes me nervous to tell her 😭
Sorry, this turned into a whole trauma dump and went completely off-topic lmao 😭

**(Edited to add sum — for my T)**
Also, if you ever read this\~ thank you so much for being so sweet and j being you. Idek if I’m ever gonna be sending you a link to this lol\~
Full disclosure… I booked one of the sessions in between coz I genuinely j missed you, and you were like, “Why did you book the session so early?” and I’M NOT SURE WHAT TO REPLY TO YOU?!? 😭
I love talking to you. I’m so so so so sorry if this is weird lol. Imma j dump everything that’s crossing my mind here coz I might not even send this to you?
I def didn’t plan, like, so many times on telling you that I miss you? (Is saying that also crossing a boundary???) And then backed out coz I thought that it’s weird.
I think I’m grateful for you? (Even though idk anything bout you?) I kinda wanna ask bout you and get to know you too, but I’m j not sure if that’s also crossing a boundary?
Ffs, idek the basics, like how old are you? And here I am j getting attached lol 😭
I feel like it would be weird to ask you how your week was or even basic questions? Coz ig you’re the one who’s supposed to be asking that, and if I do that, maybe that’s also crossing a boundary here?
IDK I’M NEW TO THERAPY?? 😭

Hi. I'm an Ex-Muslim atheist.

I stopped believing in Islam because of what Islamic scriptures have. This is also the case with many atheists from Hindu and Christian backgrounds. They are valid reasons to reject these religions because of what's in the scriptures.

Is there anything in the Guru Granth Sahib or any controversial teachings of the ten gurus? Don't tell me about the dasam granth.

I’ve been thinking about posting this for a while, but I wanted to share why I personally left Sikhism.

I grew up Sikh and went to the gurdwara for most of my life. I prayed for years and genuinely tried to build a connection with Waheguru. But over time I just stopped feeling anything. Especially during some of the worst periods of my life, I prayed so much and begged for things to get better, but I kept feeling like nothing was changing. Eventually I started feeling like God was against me or like my prayers just didn’t matter. I know that sounds harsh, but that’s honestly how I felt.

Another big part was the community. I was born and raised in Canada, and sometimes I felt like I was never really “Indian” or Punjabi enough for some people. I don’t speak Punjabi very well, I grew up pretty Canadian, and I sometimes felt judged or treated differently because of that. It made it harder to feel like I actually belonged in the community I was supposedly part of.
And honestly, whenever I went to the gurdwara, I often felt like the actual meaning of Sikhi got lost for me. There was so much Khalistan/political discussion and community drama that I personally stopped associating the gurdwara with spirituality or peace. I know politics and Khalistan mean different things to different Sikhs, and I’m not trying to tell anyone what they should believe. I’m just saying that it contributed to me feeling disconnected.

I still respect a lot of Sikh teachings, especially seva, equality and helping other people. I also have a lot of love for my family and the parts of my childhood connected to Sikhism.

But I eventually realized I was only going through the motions. I didn’t feel connected to the people, the community, or God anymore, and I couldn’t keep pretending that I did just because I was raised Sikh.

I don’t know what I believe now, and maybe that will change someday. For now, I’m just being honest with myself about where I’m at.

I created a new subreddit for Punjabi Dalits: r/PunjabiDalits

I recently created r/PunjabiDalits, a new community for discussions about Punjabi Dalit history, culture, literature, experiences, research, and community issues.

The idea is also to build a collection of books, academic research, historical documents, archives, documentaries, and other resources about Punjabi Dalits.

Anyone is welcome to join, whether you are Punjabi Dalit or simply interested in learning about the history and culture.

The subreddit is still new, so I'm hoping to slowly build it with useful information and contributions from people.

If you think this would be relevant to you or someone you know, feel free to join: r/PunjabiDalits ❤️

Suggestions and contributions are also welcome.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9gnWYBSubVM