Define the Rate Resource

[u/Additional_Option596]

Saw this on the Colorado gun owners Facebook group. It’s a website someone made to try and help challenge the frt ban, thought I would repost it here.

definetherate.org

[u/mechatiger5J]

NAL but if “standard rate of fire” remains undefined, would the charge even be prosecutable? Not that that would prevent some DA’s from any attempt, but I can’t imagine that it would get very far.

[u/slvrsfr → u/mechatiger5J]

The prosecution would probably leave the "standard" rate up to the manufacturer. And the manufacturer will say "the semi-auto rate of fire is as fast as the shooter can pull/release/pull the trigger" which is almost always going to be slower than the same gun with an FRT... unless the shooter is a Guiness Book record holder for fastest semi-auto trigger operator. The law doesn't depend on a defined rate, it depends on an FRT-equipped gun shooting faster than the exact same gun without the FRT, which is the whole point of the FRT.

It's ironic that the State acknowledges a "standard" rate of fire, but fails to acknowledge that 30rd magazines are "standard" capacity.

[u/Ok_Cut_4964 → u/slvrsfr]

What if a firearm is sold with an FRT installed?

[u/Additional_Option596 → u/Ok_Cut_4964]

I have been curious about that for a long time, I mentioned it to some before the bill even became law. The manufacturer could argue that’s the firearms “standard rate of fire”.

[u/white_trash_liberal → u/Additional_Option596]

Franklin Armory sells ARs with a binary already installed but doesn't ship to CA, CO, CT, DC, DE, HI, IL, MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT, or WA.

[u/slvrsfr → u/Ok_Cut_4964]

I've thought about that. Doesn't change the fact that the installed FRT is designed to increase the ROF of the host. The whole point of semi-auto is to require the user to release finger pressure to reset the trigger so that the gun can't be called a machine gun. The whole purpose of an FRT is to defeat the voluntary reset by overriding the user's finger pressure and resetting it anyway, contrary to the user's command NOT to reset.

[u/Ok_Cut_4964 → u/slvrsfr]

I think that's a legal gray area. FRTs are still causing tbe user to pull the trigger for each shot taken. Take bump firing for example, you are still pulling each time for each trigger pull. So are we outlawing hands or fingers capable of bump fire?

[u/Sroundez → u/slvrsfr]

You're missing the part where an FRT, by definition, is the user pulling and releasing the trigger in a semi automatic fashion. That's literally how they work.

[u/slvrsfr → u/Sroundez]

Nope. The FRT is specifically designed to "force" the user's finger to allow the reset even though they haven't released the pull yet. Forced means "it's gonna happen whether you want it to or not". It causes a reset even though the user hasn't requested a reset. It's not the same as full-auto, but it's equally not the same as semi-auto. An FRT absolutely does allow multiple shots to be fired with a "continuous pull" of the trigger (I didn't say "single function").

EDIT: Plus, CO law doesn't care about the definitions or mechanics of semi-auto vs full-auto/machinegun. It also covers devices that aren't even related to the trigger at all.

[u/Five-Point-5-0]

This is actually super important.

As a cop who cares deeply about upholding the rights of the people, ive said this is the Achilles heel of this legislation and the lynchpin of why I cannot enforce this law.

If, on one hand you mean something that makes a gun easier to fire in semi-auto faster than the base rate of fire, every single trigger upgrade fits this statute.

If, on the other hand, you mean cyclic rate, then the only things that are banned are lighter buffers, heavier recoil springs, etc. and not FRTs.

This law is unconstitutional based on it being overbroad, and is unenforceable due to lack of definitions.

[u/slvrsfr → u/Five-Point-5-0]

I really wish I could agree, and I think FRTs should be unrestricted, but as Devil's Advocate, the "standard rate of fire" for any particular semi-auto firearms is "as fast as the human user can pull and release the trigger". The inherent cyclic rate of any semi-auto is MUCH faster than what 99.9% of human beings can accomplish. If I don't care about accuracy, I could probably squeeze off 50-60 rounds per minute with any of my semi-auto guns. Even if I could do 150 rounds/min and we called that the "standard rate of fire", popping an FRT in any of my test subjects would allow for 500-900 RPM or faster. Therein lies the problem: the FRT enables any gun its installed in to exceed human trigger-finger ability.

I'm still signing the petition though!

[u/Five-Point-5-0 → u/slvrsfr]

I agree with the sentiment regarding firing rate far exceeding capabilities.

But legally speaking, a 2.5lb trigger with minimal reset still increases the firing rate compared with a crap mil-spec trigger. The way the law is written, there is no in-between.