I've been watching Angel for the first time this year and Lorne is my favourite character. Is he generally liked in the fandom or not?

In memory of the trio that made this series great. I also remember Fred's words in "Fredless" - Angel is hero, Wesley is mind and Cordelia is heart

As much as I love it, I feel like they should have waited until the next episode to bring in Illyria. Let us sit with the loss of a beloved character for just a moment longer. The change was a bit too fast and there was no time to grieve. Even doing it right at the start (pre-credits scene) of the next episode would have been better. Right?

The Angel members returned to the stage to take their seats and discuss the series, their characters and the overall experience of working with such talented creators as Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt as well as the writers and their fellow cast mates with Mr. Batscha as he asked, "Tell us about the origin of the characters and how you decided to do [Angel]." "David Greenwalt and I were working on Buffy," began Joss, "and we had of course Boreanaz on it from the start. He clearly wasn't working out," he joked. "I told him that there was no chemistry there so we had to get rid of him somehow." (laugher) Joss got serious for a moment and admitted that as a performer David impressed them very much. "But we never really put a label on it until we came up with the idea of redemption, of alcoholism as a metaphor. As sort of a period in your life where instead of coming up in the world as Buffy is, you're sort of in the world and you realize that you've done a bunch of incredibly stupid things in it. Once we realized we had that metaphor to work with then we knew we had an actual show to go around this charismatic character."

David Greenwalt was quick to add, "Speaking of charismatic characters, when Joss came to me -- I said, 'We must bring Charisma Carpenter to that show.' You can really notice that with David's dark broodingness she's just big and bright." (applause) He also admitted that he would have done anything with Joss and when asked to do the show together it was the luckiest day in his life. Referring to the episode the just viewed he credits Whedon who 'breaks' all the various stories, as well as, Marti who wrote the Angel and Darla dialogue in the reservoir scene.

Mr. Batscha turned the topic to the cast and asked Joss how they were all pulled together. "We pulled them together because, again, a bunch of lucky people here," he stated as he addressed for example the Rogue demon hunter Wesley to a round of applause. Greenwalt added, "It was fun watching this on the big screen and Alexis just setting those lines up so people could knock them down." Whedon responded with, "One day he'll have jokes of his own on the show," which brought laughs. "It's a matter of balancing out the show and trying to fill all the characters," Greenwalt continued. "You got a guy who's 247 years old and you've got a big, bright, beautiful young lady who wants to come to the big city and make it. And you have this strange fellow from across the sea who . . ." Denisof finished the sentence with, " . . . falls over a lot." Greenwalt conceded laughing, "Who falls over a lot and tries really hard and frequently succeeds and it's just as funny when he falls over and stuff. Towards the end of last year we started thinking about a show -- our three people are possibly complex people, they're not so much of the world as in the world and we started thinking what about a guy who got a band of people fighting the good fight against vampires. And we came up with the notion of Gunn and J. August." Another warm round of applause.

Mr. Batscha asked Joss if he could say something about Wolfram & Hart and the lawyers and in true witty fashion Joss responded with, "They're bad." Once again the crowd laughed as Whedon continued, "The idea was always to view the bad guy as a sort of peignoir. The bad guy just as a presence, a business card, literally. But then when we had these guys come on, Christian and Stephanie, we just kept saying, 'Well, let's get them again.' They just kept coming back and bringing so much to it, sort of humanizing it. But we still feel like the idea worked. We have this vast, unknowable force but at the same time we have these two people that are so personable."

"Let's have the actors talk about their roles," Batscha opened up the stage for everyone to contribute their own stories of their beginnings into this unique ensemble. Reflecting on his appearance in the 'Dear Boy' episode, Boreanaz was quick to comment, "Oh, that was scary. I can't really tell ya, my hair was all over the place wasn't it?" "Mine too," Richards added as he rubbed his slaved head. (laughter) "I've been very blessed and very fortunate," Boreanaz began sincerely. "When I started on Buffy, I only started on 7 out of 12 [episodes]. It was just a reoccurring character for me. We were shooting the season finale, Joss called me in his office and he sat me down and he said he had this crazy idea for this character. At the time I was in period piece and about to go into a convent and do something and I didn't really think much about it. I kind of was so caught in what we were doing at the time and it kind of snowballed and turned into this phenomenal group of people that are up here today. It's a blessing to wake up everyday and say these great lines with Alexis and all these people . . ." Denisof broke in with, "Oh, we don't sleep together!" (laughter)

Whedon recalled the first when he went to David [Boreanaz], "I remember it perfectly. You were like, 'Well, okay that's a very interesting idea, you know, obviously I want to think about it. I appreciate you coming to me with it.' And I went back to David Greenwalt and I was like, 'Well, he's either the calmest person in the world or he doesn't speak any English!' " While he admitted that, " . . . we were jumping up and down hideously." Boreanaz gave credit to Tim and Marti as well for being superb writers. "But it's been a great ride. We average a lot of hours a day, twelve and a half hours a day we average on a television show." Whedon was quick to ask. "Do you ever actually shoot during the day?" "Ah, no," he admitted with a laugh. "When we're inside." Greenwalt contributed that, "It's a horrible job." (laughter) But Whedon defended, "No, not for us. It's fine for us because we get up in the morning and go to bed at night. But for these guys -- we did the whole vampire thing and they can never ever go to bed at night. Every time I see Alexis at five in the afternoon I'll be like, 'Well, have a good evening!' He'll be like, 'Yes, it's time to go to work, thank you so much.' "

Obviously the humor is not lost among these incredibly talented individuals and if their banter here was any indication of what a typical day is like, these people truly love each other and their much demanding jobs. "I remembered the day he side barred with me," Charisma Carpenter called. "[He] asked to speak to me and go for a walk, and I said, 'Oh fuck, I'm fired!' and then he gives me a new job and I said, 'Hell yeah!' " (laughter) But Charisma did admit to having initial concerns before accepting the offer. "I did have concerns because I was so spoiled with the writers on Buffy that if that wasn't going to be the same on Angel I wouldn't be comfortable being out there without a net, without these guys. (referring to the writers present) When you are with these guys and they give you in one episode an opportunity to be dramatic, heroic, vulnerable, possessed, pregnant. (laughter) Once I was assured that that would be the case, 'Oh yeah, no problem.' "

"I guess I've been doing the show since the beginning of the first season," recalled Elisabeth Rohm. She also talked to Joss before coming aboard. "I didn't really know what they were going to do with this character. They wanted to do this dark, troublesome woman and . . ." "Hook-er-ish, but a cop," Whedon offered as the audience responded with laughter again. "I remember my talk more with Joss because there was no script," Rohm continued, "and I started talking to this Dr. Suess-ian person who has this world of metaphors, delves much deeper than you might think with demons and vampires, vampire. But it's been incredible for me because I tend to show up from time to time and they've given my character this just fantastic arc. From being madly in love with Angel to hating his guts then of course most recently thinking that my life was to come to an end and wind up saving me. But it's been... everybody's become a friend and the writers and producers as well. The character rocks!" Whedon joked that Rohm was the only one who had the guts to go and get another series. Referring to her parallel role on the TNT production of BULL. He added, "Whenever you've been available, it is really lucky for us. There's really so much we can do with her."

"I remember reading," J. August Richards recalls his audition. " My manager was telling me they were casting a part on Angel and I wanted to go in for it. I remember the casting director thought I was too clean cut for the role, which I was a pretty clean cut guy. I remember I said, 'I'm gonna show them clean cut.' So I died my hair red and I went into the audition with this big, bright, red hair and hopefully did a good job. And I remember thinking after I got the part, 'How did they take me seriously with all that red hair?' How did you take me seriously?" asking of David Greenwalt. "Very seriously," he responded. "Part of me liked the red hair. I was gonna have you keep half of it." Richards continued, "But after a few conversations with James Marsters I'm happy I didn't dye my hair! (laughter) But I'm having a great time. I'm enjoying playing the character a lot, I think he's growing."

"Well, my character's just pretty much just pissed off all the time," admitted Christian Kane about his role as Angel's nemesis Lindsey. (laughter) "I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a method actor but I really don't like suits and so as soon as I put the suit on and the tie, my demeanor changes and I'm pretty much in a bad mood. It just seems to bring up the attitude." Greenwalt was happy to inform everyone that, "I'm sure that a lot of people don't know that Christian is a hell of a singer and he's gonna sing on Angel in [an upcoming] episode." On the other side of the attorney's table, Stephanie Romanov compared Lindsey and her character of Lilah to famous cartoon villains. "They're like Boris and Natasha! That's what Chris dubbed us. We're not bad, we're just written that way. (laughter) When I first did the show I was just brought on for the one episode and I didn't really - I had just, for the first time seen Angel and really liked it. What I found exciting about playing Lilah is being able to work with Christian because of the combativeness. And she's funny, she's mean, she's sexy, she's deceitful, she's bad!" said in a sexy, evil voice that received a laugh from the audience. "That's why it's been a fun experience. They never talk to me or tell me anything, [forth coming plot wise] which is nice because it keeps ya guessing." Kane agrees, "That's the best stuff about working on the show is the writers. The team of writers that they have."

"Oh, I'm sorry," Alexis Denisof comes to attention, "What was the question?" (laughter) "You're supposed to know," retorts Joss. The final member of the Angel cast ensemble present, Denisof adds his contribution about Wesley to the mix. "Wesley came on to Buffy as a temporary character," he begins, "then they couldn't seem to get rid of him. He would focus while everyone was sitting there and wondering, reading his books. And I got my feet wedged under the table, so far they just couldn't get rid of me. The rest of season three of Buffy slid by with me making the occasional appearance. Thank goodness they decided to include me in the world of Angel Investigations. I'm certainly delighted, we have a great time, it's a great team. I owe everything to this very distinguished panel here." He finished with a quiet flare which drew a laugh from everyone.

Joss elaborated on Alexis' sense of comedic talent. "When he came on Buffy he - there comes a point in every actors tenure on one of our shows where they're like, 'When do I get to be really cool? When can I say quips and stuff?' And I told Alexis, 'You can play this cool or you can sort of go broad' and he's like, 'Can I fall down? Can I make an ass of myself?' (laughter) The finale of season three [Buffy]where he's there by Angel, living to fight the good fight, I'm like, 'Okay, I can shoot this,' actually Charisma asked, 'Can I kill a Vampire?' And she was being really sweet that day and I said, 'Okay, you can kill a vampire.' And I said to him, 'Do you want to get in there? We can do some stuff, we can work out a thing. He was like, 'Oh no, I want to get knocked out right away!' " (laughter) Denisof was quick to defend his position, "There's a good reason for that," he insisted. "First, it's very funny and secondly, shooting a fight scene takes forever!" (laughter) "No, actually it was ethereal because I really love fighting and I've done a lot of fencing and I thought, 'Wow, I'm sure I can get lots of vampires to kill but it's so much funnier to just - I have this character with all these hopes for this greatest kind of St. George entrance to the dragon and then . . ." [smack] he motions with his hand that Wesley just falls over and the audience responds with a laugh.

"Obviously on Angel," Joss takes up the story, "when we were looking for the right mix and we thought about Wesley. We knew that he was pretty much mom and dad but he couldn't stay quite as much of a caricature and that we would find the bravery within and he'd be falling down on the ground allows us to play both levels because he can do it in his Sean Connery/James Bond thing." "Yeah," admits Denisof, "I kept waiting for that eyebrow thing to go back down. I remember our first chat and we talked about it. Very early on -- the writers will take the time to grow him up and out and what have you. I said to Joss, 'We could have this eccentric English guy riding a bicycle around downtown LA. Then the first script arrives . . . big-bad-dog-bike!" (laughter) "With leather pants too!" Carpenter chimes in. "If it was me," explains Alexis, "it'd be 'little English tweeds on a little bike' but no! So it's the genius prevailed of course. Without, easily guiding the character we'd all be in turmoil."

Robert Batscha's final question was, "What is it like around the writers table?" And without a moments hesitation, Greenwalt replied, "Despair. It's very dirty, both figuratively and literally. It's a vile room. If you're one of the writers and you say something vaguely off color, each one of them will have to top you." Marti Noxon agreed, "It's good. Sometimes I go to family functions and I'm like, 'I'm a whore!' " An evil laugh from Marti brought more laughs from the crowd laughter. "I've been on the staff four years running now and sometimes the wall breaks." "The greatest thing about Joss," Greenwalt offers in defense, "other than the fact that [Joss's] brain is larger than normal sized people is he's never satisfied and he will wait, sometimes I think that he waits until we're already shooting. He waits until its right. We are closing in, between Buffy and Angel -- when I say we it's I worked on Buffy for three years, 'I consult' is just a fancy word for 'I'm downstairs looking at Angel on TV.' So we're closing in on 144 episodes in five years and that's a lot of dang stories and he will just wait until its right and it's a great lesson." Joss adds. "Well, there's long stretches where we need a few more words and then we think we have something and we latch on to that and there's a few days of that and then we realize it's nothing."

"One of the good things though is that Joss likes to sometimes," Noxon offers as an example, "when we've got nothing [he] takes us to some of the best restaurants in the city to have nothing. And so you'll be sitting next to some couple that's getting engaged and we're like in our sweatshirts, we smell, we've got our tablets and stuff. Everybody else in the world is having the most important, elegant dinner in their lives and we're like, 'We've got nothing!' Then we eat well." Tim Minear agrees, "It's the most fun ever. I don't know how much time is actually devoted to 'breaking story', I suppose in some way all the 'having fun' is about getting the breaking story. But it's definitely the most fun ever." "For me also, the fun of working with young Joss over there," Greenwalt explains that, "Years ago, if you came to TV from movies you were immediately cast as dramatic writers, you're doing one hour and it's all the same or you're doing half hour and its all the same. And the great thing about Joss's work as Charisma said, it's got everything and I think all of us feel that we get fully used under his privilege." "I feel used!" Tim states and draws a big laugh.

Charisma adds to the feeling of being used as she offers up a bit of inside information to an up-coming episode. "Yeah, I'm really excited about the next episode. I have to wear a bikini." Although this draws much applause she goes on to explain that, "The actually script said, 'bend over more.' " Now with the audience in a fit of laughter over her plight she pleads with Joss, "I mean, can I wear a sarong?" Boreanaz quickly comes to her support, "I'll wear a bikini! And sing Karaoke until I'm blue in the face!" to which the house erupts into laughter and cheers.

PANEL Q&A

Mr. Batscha chose this to be the opportune moment to turn the questions over to the audience. With a pleasant mix of both Angel fan and industry type present there was an intelligent thoughtfulness to each question addressed to the panel along with the occasional poke in the side offering.

Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"

JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."

Audience Member: "What you're favorite gag-reel moment from this season?"

JW: "I think you just saw it, I believe it had to do with Wang Chung."

DB: "I agree. [It's] where all the Karaoke stuff came and they told me about it I was, well very excited about it, but I wasn't sure my voice would be."

JW: "That day we did tell him, 'Sing worse.' Because he was going in there and he would sing really -- 'No, no you have to suck!' "

JAR: "David can sing. David can also beat-box and pop-lock. He's talented." (laughter)

ER: "The first ending of the second episode I ever did, David and I are running after this bad guy. We're running with my gun, and all of a sudden David totally falls flat on the ground and I go down with David or whatever I was trying to do, and the two of us complete fall on our butts after this guy. That was very funny."

CK: "I was doing a scene with (Stephanie) and she's trying to frame me. And she has a microphone inside her blouse and I'm to pull it out. We're rolling film and somewhere along the course of the scene the thing had fallen down. (laughter) I had to get down in there and get something from her."

Audience Member: "After doing such quality work for so long how do you deal with being constantly ignored by the Emmys?"

JW: "You know, I'm hanging out with these guys all day, who cares about the Emmy's." (applause)

MN: "Joss got nominated for Best Writing last year for 'Hush.' "

JW: "I think the Emmy's are cool, and would like to have several of them and wear them about my neck. But I mean, a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer - and to make a show about a vampire. You're not going to speculate, if any to us to get any attention at all, it's an extraordinary boon. It's an incredible compliment."

Audience Member: "What in fact has the avid devotion of the fans had on your life?"

JAR: "I get free coffee at Starbucks." (laughter and applause)

TM: "We actually just had our Posting Board Party which was great fun. Where we actually go and meet a lot of these people that speak on the Internet. I think however, recently that I've been avoiding it for the last . . . 48 hours and 6 minutes! It's really hard not to go on and read that stuff although no good can come from it in some ways," he stated jokingly. "So now I've been trying to avoid it, I found a really bad review of one of my episodes."

JW: "He's got a problem. It's an addiction, it's a problem I had for awhile. Go on the Internet and there's praise and then there's more and you think, 'I invented television!' and 'Why doesn't my wife think I'm cooler?' (laughter) and then one person goes 'It's no good!' You have to find the balance, listening and observing. It's a great thing. It's great, I love to hear the opinions of people and it does effect the way I think about the show."

Audience Member: "I have a quick question about LA as a setting. Did you do it out of convenience? Why did you pick LA and how do you pick the places in LA that you're gonna separate?"

JW: "LA was going to be the character in the show. There are very cool things about LA but then we'll end up shooting on the back lot which begins to look like Newark. (laughter) It was really out of convenience, we knew we would be shooting here. We didn't want to pretend to be somewhere else. We wanted to give the feeling of a broader scope and not shoot everything on the same street. We didn't want to pretend it was Toronto and we certainly didn't want to go there. (laughter) We do feel like that's always something we're trying to define is the character of LA and trying to define in terms of what it's means for Angel. Tim actually wrote some great stuff about, 'Why do you live in LA and drive a convertible?' So it's something that's still evolving and hopefully . . ."

DG: "It's a character that will hopefully become a regular at some point. But we like LA so much we're going to leave it for the last three episodes of this year and go to another place."

TM: "Spoiler!" (laughter and applause)

Audience Member: "You have a tendency to mention things early on and then bring them back at the really most interesting times, like Jonathan. How do you get these kind of ideas? And When is Buffy ever gonna realize that she slept with Angel?"

TM: "When she gets a rash." (laughter)

JW: "Very specifically in terms of huge -- arcing these things out as far in advance as we can. Some of them are fortuitous acts and as we look back and say, 'Oh you know we had this and it will connect this with this and that.' Eventually, and some of them come from disasters. For example, one that we did on Buffy, 'Lovers Walk,' the episode where Spike came back and Drusilla had left him. Juliet was shooting a movie and they were gonna come back together. They were Spike and Dru and we couldn't get her and we said, 'Well, what if they broke up?' So eventually, as I've said before, the story's telling us what's going to happen. There a symbiosis between what we're doing and what the story's doing to the point where when we come up with something, even if it surprises us we look back and go, "Wow, we've been building towards that and we didn't even know it.' The Xander and Cordelia romance -- a long time on Buffy. The intensity of their arguments had been increasing and increasing and we had not thought about giving them a romance. When we looked back and it was like we had been trying to do it from the second episode. So it really just takes on a life of its own and some of it's planned, some of it isn't. Some of it comes from the trouble but it's like riding the rapids. And we keep going and it all seems to fall together . . . sometimes."

Audience Member: "Are there any plans to expand the core cast on the show?"

JW: "What we do is we have is a very solid central love for the people we have. Like Elisabeth when she got herself that other television show. With our players who are not regulars we see when we can get them, we're good with that. And gradually when we begin to build as we did on Buffy, somebody will lock in, maybe become a regular, maybe be a semi-regular. And it just sort of grows. That's what we hoped would happen with J. and very much did. You've seen new characters this year, like the Karaoke demon host. (applause) He's part of the mix now, he's someone we can go to and hopefully as the show goes on there's more and more. It kind of evolves but it can't grow too much."

DG: "But again there's like 69 regulars on Buffy."

JW: "I'm killing them off."

Alyson Hannigan: (from the audience) "Killing them all off?" (laughter)

JW: "But not you, Alyson."

DG: "That's Alyson Hannigan who plays Willow." (applause)

JW: "Someone we could never, ever kill off!"

Audience Member: "How are you dealing with all the attention you're constantly getting from all the female cats?"

DB: "Female cats? Let me put my smoking jacket on. I feel underdressed." After much laughter and a bit of ribbing from the panel that suggested naked pictures of David on the internet, he attempted to get serious. "To answer a bit of that question, I'm very blessed to have a very charmed family and very fortunate to have a mom and dad who built a work ethic responsibility. When you're in a position, especially in Hollywood -- by publicity, by the sheer fact that people gather in your ear 24 hours a day. But the way you remain true to yourself is your heart and your parents and my sister, Bo, who's in the crowd tonight. They are a very strong influence in my life and also these people here who keep me straight."

CC: "Your family does mean a lot and you have to have a strong sense of family and I think that helps."

DB: "Well, you just play a character on the show and that's it, we all do the same thing everyday, we all go to the bathroom the same way."

TM: "Apparently you do it on the Internet." (laughter)

Audience Member: "You're like an old soul and you're so wise. My mother died from a brain tumor last year and all the episodes with Buffy's mother were incredible." (applause)

JW: "My mother also died several years ago and so that did in fact come from experience. That was something I wanted to say about what it was like. I appreciate that."

CC: "Why didn't anyone close the eyes?"

JW: "To make it worse."

CC: "Because that was really disturbing. And I kept thinking, 'Will somebody please close her eyes.' And Alyson is in the audience and her part . . . (applause) . . . it was so phenomenal, it just had everything. It was like 5 minutes of just gushing."

DG: "The only thing I would have added was a laugh track and a little music."

JW: "Alyson did an incredible performance and I had to edit it for a long time. And she spent the entire time (Joss sobs dramatically) 'okay, let's try going over her.' (sobs) This girl can act very beautifully. But talking about how much in advanced our character is planned -- one of the things planned incredibly carefully was that the arc of Angel would be headed into the downward spiral and then the redemption would come on that very episode because I was like, 'They're gonna need it!' "

THE WRAPUP

Charisma reflected on a moment showing how things evolve on the shows. "Actually I have an interesting comment about Joss and his brain. Just taking him in is unusual because he can juggle like, I don't know how he does it. I don't do combination plate very well. It's hard for me to maintain, and he was pacing on the set and directing and he had written the episode and somebody said to Joss, 'What's going on, what are you thinking about?' and he's like, 'I'm thinking about next season's episode 17.' Okay, and we're in Season 1, episode 5. Wow, kinda smart." "I like her!" Joss boasted as he continued to give praise. "It's a process for all of us and I'm very deeply indebted to the writing staff at this point. I believe that I have the three best writers in television with me right here." (applause) "And it's not only that they're sitting with me on stage but I would not have two shows and possibly not even one show on the air if it wasn't for these people. It really is the four of us together and the process of just being in the middle of something completely focused. And you go, 'What if?' It's the best feeling to feel like you can juggle - sometimes we think, 'Hey we got three [ideas] and right now they're all rolling on the ground.' Sometimes it's like everything is just working perfectly and we're all in perfect sync and just so back and forth."

"Yeah, it's true," Tim Minear agrees and offers up an example, "We did a cross-over this year, the vampire cross-over, 'Fool For Love' and 'Darla'. Joss and I were trying to figure out what the episode was going to be for Angel 7 which was 'Darla' we had planned -- David Greenwalt wrote the one you saw tonight 'What do you think of Darla?' I'm interested to see what it means for her to be a human being so I think we should do an origin piece and Joss said to me, 'That's always good.' We sort of looked at each other, 'Maybe we should do both.' And Joss said, 'We can have the B scenes on Buffy and the A scenes on Angel.' So you're seeing what happened afterwards first and you're seeing what happen before . . . I mean that was just great!"

"I'm not sure how to end this," admitted Mr. Batscha with a laugh as he prepared to close the evening. "Just to simply congratulate you on the energy, your enthusiasm, your commitment. The audience obviously, excuse the expression, is eating it up and loving it." Joss was happy to complete the closure on the evening by addressing the audience in his most sincere and softest manner, "I just want to say it is really lovely for us to come here and hear from you guys and to answer questions about Angel that aren't, 'Is that the show on FOX?' We really appreciate your support, I mean obviously we wouldn't be here if you weren't there, so thank all of you so much!" And with that, the cast and crew rose to tremendous applause and cheers.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010419072307/http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts/paley1.html

I always felt that Gunn was written as a "token black guy" so his character was written weakly. But I really find it implausible that the relationship between Gunn and Fred ended cuz Gunn killed a guy for Fred!!! Tf. I guess it's one of those situations that even if Fred was with Wes, the relationship would have ended because Fred was gonna kill the professor and no relationship would be the same after that.

I'm rewatching Angel and I'm always surprised how dark this show is! I really have to turn up the display because it's really difficult to tell what's happening at times. Are there any other shows/movies with the same problem?

I'm curious as to the sub's thoughts on the name on the box of the funko pop. Personally it felt a bit like a stab in the heart lol.

I prefer how they word it in the website title, but ultimately did think they'd call the pop Illyria.

In S1E18 "Five By Five" Faith beat up a pimp, stole his wallet and house keys and brough Wesley to his house to torture him.

Angel finds out by checking the list of all the people Faith beat up in Los Angeles and he goes to rescue Wesley, he busted trough the door and entered to confront Faith.

How could he enter without the rightful owner inviting him?

(Spoilers for Season 1 and some parts of Season 2 and Buffy Season 4)

This has gone much further than I thought.. Anyway, happy to meet y’all. These are my notes on Angel (“A”) and Doyle (“D”) and why I think they’re into each other, featuring Cordelia (“C”) as an innocent bystander.

This is mostly meant as a joke and to feed my own delusions, so please don’t take any of this too seriously. The quotes are as accurate as possible, and if not, I will have written down what was changed/paraphrased. The interpretations are my own.

Also, I have absolutely nothing against other ATS ships (Doyle/Cordy, Angel/Cordy, etc.). This is just me yapping and overanalysing one of my OTPs. Enjoy! :)

ATS S1 EP1:

• around 10:21 D: “(chuckles) Have you looked in the mirror lately?” (Implies A is good-looking)
• 38:08 *D treats A’s gunshot wound, A is (of course) shirtless* (They basically just met?? Whatever, maybe A’s just like that..)
• Every time D talks to A, A is looking elsewhere & around, while D is just constantly staring intensely at him

ATS S1 EP2:

• 01:04 D: “It’s Friday Night. It’s the most social night of the week” (usually, one could assume D would be in a bar or something, yet he is with A.)
• 01:08 D: “I mean a couple of lookers like us […]” (again, implies A is attractive)
• 01:21 D: “You gotta come out, man”, A: “Why?”; D: “Because, I think we deserve a night of fun” (wants to go out/spend time with A. Remember, the Powers that Be only sent D to A so that A can do his warrior-stuff, not to connect A with people…)
• D gets his vision, for the first time in front of A, and A is super worried, keeps telling him to calm down and stuff and HOLDS D by the WAIST?????????
• 03:26 A: “Looks like you got your wish. We’re going out after all, huh?” (While looking at D with that Intense Look he has); (Also just “We’re going out”…)

ATS S1 EP3:

• 07:07, when Oz has come to visit, D looks quite jealous at the attention he is getting from A. Now, he looked jealous when he was talking to C, too, but that’s besides the point
• 08:04 D: “What are you waiting for, man? P-put it on!” (Telling A to put on a ring <3 …Disregarding that it’s the Gem of Amara….)
• 08:32, basically inviting A to go to a strip club together
• 38:37, A chooses to spend what he can assume will be the last sunset he’ll ever see with D. We know that D didn’t just force his presence onto A, because just a scene earlier, D told all of them to leave A some time to himself in the sun (and then A just makes small talk with D about D’s mom)

ATS S1 EP4:

• 01:01 D: “He likes playing the hero. Walking off into the dark, his long coat flowing behind him in that mysterious and attractive way..”; C: “Is this a private moment? ‘Cause I could leave you alone”; D: “No- nothing- (chuckles nervously) I’m not saying I am attracted. I’m just saying that, you know, he projects a certain kind of image […]”
• 01:45 (almost unprompted starts complimenting A) D: “Sure been making us proud these past few weeks, fighting evil and allathat”
• A is always so adorably worried whenever D gets a vision, it’s cute. D asks for Single Malt Scotch to calm down from the vision and A doesn’t hesitate a second to get it, and when D complains about it being Polymalt, A looks so apologetic
• 02:57 C gives D a knowing look, D: “..Maybe I’m a little attracted”

ATS S1 EP5

• A and D often have casual talks just the two of them. It’s somehow cute.
• 09:16 (D tries to make C realise he had a bruise on his hand. She doesn’t notice. 10:05, A enters. D doesn’t even try to show him, but he realises IMMEDIATELY) A: “You got a bruise on your hand” (worried, brooding face-look)
• 10:21, while D is leaving(?) D grabs a book that seems to belong to A without asking. So I like to think D borrows books from A often
• Throughout the entire debt-collecting plotline, A is very worried and very protective of D. It’s cute.
• A is very curious about D’s life. D says he needs time, but will tell him eventually. He never did.
• 40:54 A: “You know I’ll help you out” (“whenever you need me”, goes unsaid.)

ATS S1 EP6

• 05:17 (C curses A for leaving them alone with a demon, D just stays silent and doesn’t complain. When not understanding what C means, A immediately turns to D to explain. Even when “translating” what C means, he does so by kinda insulting her and not A)
• 07:47 (while D is investigating, A comes, asks what’s new and leans.. pretty close… Also the non-verbal communication between them is always very cute)
• 19:43 (some guy invites D to a gym which could…very loosely be interpreted as flirting. A immediately breaks them off… which also could just be to get the information he’s looking for, OR he’s jealous hehe. Details, details.)
• 33:44 (A gives D and C a hug and its so cute (okay he’s brainwashed, but that’s besides the point)) C’s response to this is “Ew- eww”, while D’s is just “mhh.. mhm..” (like the sounds when you nod to smth)
• (sligghtlyy off topic:) 34:01 A: “He [= a sensitive version of A] was in here all the time (taps his chest) just waiting to come out” (.. you wanna “come out”, A?)
• 37:04 (we see the Angel Investigations team break into a Police Station through a high window. The order they enter we can assume to be C then D then A. We don’t see the alley/street from where they got in, but before it was implied they couldn’t really reach it easily. So, D or A possibly helped C enter, then A must’ve helped D! This is all just speculation.)

ATS S1 EP 7

• 00:27 (they always talk privately when no one else is around <3) D: “[…] How about some off-duty fun?” (Inviting A out again); A: “Such as?” (Not rejecting this time, actually sounds kinda willing to go); (D just casually pushes A’s feet off his desk to make some room for himself) D: “Two beautiful words: sports bar”; (A silently declines) D: “[…] Anything, please?? I can’t just sit around here while-“ (they are cut off by C). (Okay D. But you could also just go out by yourself like you do quite often.. why are you so desperate to get A to join you, huh? 😏)
• 01:14, C makes a comment about possibly quitting her job and then leaves, leaving A and D who proceed to quietly look at each other (gayly). When C’s date comes in, they confront him, asking questions (like parents who first meet their daughters’ new boyfriend). Smh..
• 02:17, D finds a picture of Buffy and asks A about it. When he finds out it’s Buffy, he stops his jokes about her being a hottie (like the respectful guy he is). Also, besides the point, but D is looking through a book again, and I’d bet my liver it’s another one of A’s
• 02:45, D gets another vision, and, as per usual, A is immediately by his side. Also helps D stand up once it’s done
• 03:04 D: “Everybody’s got dinner plans but us” (implying he wants to go out for dinner.. with A, perhaps??)
• 04:34, A and D are clearing out a vampire nest, fighting well together. A is attacked from behind and D just hangs himself onto that vampire to fight him down lol. Then A stabs the vampire who’s threatening D. They protecc each other
• 05:14 A: “Doyle, you’re stronger when you’re a demon, right? Why’d you shake it off?” (Worried bf); D: “I just don’t like to fight like that”; A: “This isn’t a Spelling Bee, nobody expects you to play fair.”; D: “It’s not my style, that’s all.” (A is worried and doesn’t want D to get hurt lol. Also, D then offers his help, but A insists he go home and rest <3)
• 07:44, C is complaining about her bad date and A is kinda listening while also doing paperwork, when she brings up D. Suddenly, A is locked tf in on that conversation. C compliments D and A just smiles dumbly
• 08:49 A: “Yeah, well, there’s definitely more to Doyle than meets the eye” (with a smug(??) kinda grin?)
• 11:02, D introduces Harry as his wife to C, when A enters C repeats this to A who does not seem surprised. So, it’s fair to assume D told A about Harry?? They definitely talk even more with each other off screen
• 11:57 D: “Yeah, I’m a private investigator now, and this is my company. These two are, uh, my helpers” (C tries to deny such, A nudges her silent. To keep up D’s cover?, but A, how very nice of you…)
• 15:06, A tries to pour him and D a drink to talk. D declines the drink, but just think: A doesn’t need to drink (and cannot get drunk). A doesn’t usually drink. Meaning, he got this alcohol just for the occasion to drink it with D?
• 15:25 A: “So, .. you two hadn’t been in touch at all since you split up?” (A little worried, a little jealous??); D: “Oh, the end was rough, […]” […]; A: “You shouldn’t blame yourself for that. I mean, you were kids, it’s only natural.” (Comforting his bf <3)
• 17:17 (D is so hesitant to ask A a favour) D: “..Angel, you think you could-?” (Gets cut off by Mr. Eager); A: “Yeah.” (No hesitation bruh.)
• 17:25, D gives A a thankful pat on the back, grabs a glass of Scotch and chugs it. PAUSE. Now earlier in this scene, we saw how A poured a glass for himself and tried to give D a glass, too, but D declined and says that alcohol isn’t good for him. So the only glass filled with alcohol was A’s. We can assume A already drank from this glass. That means, they drank from the same glass, ergo: indirect kiss. To further show that this was indeed A’s glass, we see D set it down next to his original glass, which is still empty. BOOYAH.) (okay, upon rewatching the scene, no, A did not drink from the glass before.. but still! Thinking about it that way; A probably hadn’t planned to drink if D wasn’t going to drink, too, else he would’ve. So he kept the glass he poured himself just in case D would want a drink??
• (Also, A stalks Richard (Harry’s new fiancé) just because D told him to lol)
• 21:17 Harry says: “But he couldn’t accept himself. Or them [= the Brachen Demons]”, and A just looks.. sad and confused.
• 25:16, D enters the Bachelor Party. Now, notice how A was not invited? Well, he just came as D’s date, I suppose.. (25:36, Some Guest: “And he [= Doyle] brought someone..”)
• 29:15 A: “Are you okay?” (Okay, worried, kinda overprotective bf); D: “..Yeah”
• 33:36, Richard tries to hug D, D almost immediately pushes him off. Now, it might be because he has a slight personal front against Richard, but he just told him he had his blessings, so he can’t dislike him that much. He also declines hugs from everyone else. Still, he declined his hug, while he let (brainwashed) A hug him for at least 3 seconds or more (refer to EP 6, 33:44).
• 35:16, D fears for his life, and immediately calls out to A. This might just be because he brought A to the party and knows he’s strong, but still. First instinct!! “Oh god, where is Angel? Angel!!!!” When A wakes up a few minutes later, he immediately vamps out, and when he arrives KICKS DOWN the freaking doors. Protective much??
• 37:20 Bachelor Party Guest: “You brought a vampire to my brother’s bachelor party?” (Still makes it sound like A is D’s date) (Also, D just looks incredibly smug for his panicked state when this is brought up.)
• 41:40 C: “He’s still really hung up on her [= Harry], isn’t he?”; A: “Mm. More than he knew, probably, yeah.”; C: “Well, someone has to go out there and cheer him up” (A hesitates, looks at C, starts moving towards where D is, she holds him back, goes in his stead. A looks.. kinda disappointed? and stalks their conversation. When C’s “cheering up” goes too far into the direction of insulting D, A stops her.)
• 42:53, when D has a vision about Buffy, he hesitates to tell A. Maybe to spare his feelings? Maybe.. jealousy?

BTVS S4 EP8

• throughout this episode A (and others A has talked to) keep referring to D as A’s “friend”. It’s kinda cute idk
• A also cuts Willow off when she tries to make small talk about C with the reason that “he doesn’t have any time”.. still enough time to tell anyone who will listen about your “friend who gets visions”…
• Willow says to Giles (about A) “I think he’s lost his edge”. How would that have happened in such short time if not for D!! (Who forced him to connect with people, go outside, get to know people, etc) Hehe

ATS S1 EP8

• 00:29 C: “When did he get back?” [A from Sunnydale]; D: “Late last night.”; C: “And?”; D: “He seemed fine(?)” (1st of all, it’s so cute how both of them worry about A <3. 2nd of all; This conversation implies D was just hanging out at A’s place (who we know was away for 3 days in Sunnydale!!) for no apparent reason, probably also sleeping over there, possibly waiting for A to return to LA, and then he probably had a conversation with A, late at night when A returned!!) (Also this means, if it’s true, that A trusts D with his home. I mean, he kicked out C after she spent just a night at his place, and I don’t think D broke in. Alas, he left his keys with D and trusted him enough to let him just.. stay there??)
• C just rambles on and on about relationships after A said he was fine with leaving Buffy in the past, and D just kinda.. awkwardly stood there, quiet.
• 06:30, when C and D are just about to leave the office and hear noise of fighting, C is even more desperate to get out fast, while D is worried and wants to at least go check that A and Buffy are fine… until C drags him out with her
• 13:55, when C and D come back to the office, C finds a pile of dust and thinks for a moment that Buffy killed A. D: “What are you trying, to give me a heart attack?!” (Thought his pookie was dead for a sec)
• 14:12, A re-enters the office, now alive/human C: “What’s wrong, what happened?” […] (A stays quiet. D too. D approaches A, probably, somehow, recognising he is now alive) […] A: “Some of its blood mixed with mine.” (D gets close and feels his pulse) […] (A tries food and.. moans, D just stands by and.. watches??)
• 17:07) D: “Hey, what difference does it make, man? The demon’s dead, you’re alive! It’s happy fun time.” (D really wants to have some “happy fun time” with A, huh?)
• 17:18 A: “How come I keep getting the feeling that you’re not telling me everything?”; D: “Because I’m not. We’re both on a need-to-know basis here” (Ouch, pooks. Ouch.)
• 18:12 A: “Aren’t you coming [to the Oracles]?”; D: “Not allowed. I’m just a lowly messenger. You’re a warrior” (aww. Look at him.) (Also A’s pretty eager to get D to come with..)
• 29:50, D storms into A’s apartment and doesn’t blink twice at seeing A shirtless. Okay, to be fair, it’s A we’re talking about but still. Used to it, are we, D?) (Few moments later, A gets dressed and D just.. watches
• 31:35, A and D encounter dead bodies. In his mortal form, A suffers from the sight. D helps keep him upright D: “It’s never an easy sight. It’s part of being human now.”

ATS S1 EP9 </3

• In the starting scene of C wanting to film a commercial, D is very against starring in it, until she mentions doing it as a favour for A. Then he suddenly caves..
• 05:43 C: “That’s all very sad, but we live here [in A’s apartment?], too.”; D: (looks around, considering) “I’ll talk to him” (someone’s eager..)
• 05:59 “I don’t see Angel putting on tights.. Oh, now I do and it’s really disturbing” (seconds later D casually walks off to talk to A) (fantasising about A, are we?)
• 06:39, A tells D about the erased day no one but him was supposed to know about. D: “Human? You were a real life flesh-and-blood human being? (Not disbelieving, only clarifying) And you and Buffy [had sex]..? (That’s the first thing you’re interested in?? Okay..) You had the one thing you actually wanted in your unnaturally long life and you gave it back?” (He’s just acting silly. He knows the pain A is in. And A knows this. That’s why he trusted him) […] “Well if it’s a fight they want.. can’t someone else give it to them?” (Easily makes A smile again after having been down.)
• 17:02, D randomly opens up to A about a part of his past (rejecting another Brachen-demon) he’s clearly been trying to forget. And A just. Listens. Also, it seems like A is finally comfortable enough to stare back into D’s eyes with an Intense Glare, instead of avoiding his gaze like he did before.
• (here it’s shown that the first time D got his visions, he had no idea what they meant, where they came from or- anything, really. At that point, he was a Messenger with no one to deliver the message to.. so maybe he sought out A by himself after all?)
• 18:55, A comforts D about his “sin” A: “You couldn’t have known”, (and then looks very sad when D doesn’t answer to this (doesn’t accept that it wasn’t his fault))
• 19:10 A: “It won’t come to that. Because we’re gonna get them out of here” (helpful bf) (and just the way D looks at him then UGH my heart)
• 24:40 Rieff: “Why? Because your [=D] friend’s [=A] the Promised One?!” (He says, and D looks like he wants to defend A lol)
• 24:53 D: “But I do know Angel, and he’s the genuine article” (<3); Rieff: “My hero” (sarcastic); D: “Yeah. That’s exactly what he is!” (He doesn’t try to convince Rieff the “Promised One” is real, only defends A and says he’s a “real hero”. D can you be a little more obvious, please 🙄. And then he says something along the lines of “Maybe A isn’t a perfect hero, but he saved me” (paraphrased))
• 27:42, A from a dark house pulls D in (who is being chased), D doesn’t even panic or anything, even though he didn’t know it was A. As if he could somehow sense/recognise it was A hehe. (Also protective A strikes again)
• 39:23, A means to sacrifice himself. His “goodbye” for that is just grabbing D’s shoulder and resting his hand there. And D just grabs his arm in turn. (And D was about to say something before A pat his shoulder, and that kinda shut him up.)
• 39:25) D: “The Good Fight, yeah?” (And A is TEARING UP) “You never know until you’ve been tested. I get that now.” (All the while they are just staring intensely into each other’s eyes) (And then D punches A, that way he falls off the balcony-thingy. Because D knows A would stop him and sacrifice himself instead)
• 40:24, A tries to stand after he’s just fallen like 4 metres/13 feet. He just says “Doyle. Doyle, Doyle! Doyle! NO! No! No!” as he tries to get to his bf, and D had already jumped to the beacon, but A was back up to that balcony in just seconds. And C doesn’t even say anything, just covers her mouth with her hands, while A is standing there, panicked, looking like he’s about to cry
• 41:36, A and C are just hugging while she is sobbing. Like WE just lost OUR boyfriend :(
• 41:41, A and C are looking at the advertisement they filmed, while sitting quietly in the dark office. And we get like. Equal amounts of face close-ups from A and C, although D was like, supposed to be C’s love interest??

ATS S1 EP 10

• 00:40, A is visiting the Oracles to ask them to bring D back. (Oh my homo.) A: “But I need Doyle. You can fold time. You’ve done it before. Bring him back.”; Oracle (female): “To what end? To nullify his noble death? To leave his atonement unfulfilled?”; A: “If it means he lives.” […] “He’s my friend.” (They also call his request “self-serving” lol. When A brings up the argument of D having been his Messenger, they say RIP BOZO, but you would think that would be the FIRST thing A says upon visiting the Oracles?? Not just “pls bring my boyfriend back I miss him a lot”)
• 03:15, C is looking for D’s special coffee mug. A: “Doyle didn’t have a special mug” (which A somehow noticed but C missed? Okay..)
• When Barney comes to get help from A, apparently because he has debts to settle, I just want to point out the strong contrast between how A treated D when he had “debts to settle”, and how he treats this guy.
• 10:08, C kisses A (to pass the visions onto him). INDIRECT KISS THROUGH C?!
• 10:33, when C mentions her kiss with D and him having “passed something onto her”, A just touches his lips, as if he could feel the essence of D there or something lol
• 10:43, C also mentions “I didn’t ask for this responsibility unlike some people who shall remain lifeless [=D]. I don’t have anything to atone for”, and A just looks at her, mournfully
• 11:07 A: “You’re [=C] my link to the powers now.” (While looking dumbfounded, sad, and kinda mad, too. That this was the reason the Oracles wouldn’t bring D back)
• 12:21, A tells C to “Try sketching it” [=the thing from her vision], while he always just let D talk or describe stuff. Bf privileges or something

ATS

S2 EP18 “Dead end” - Wes mentions D and him having been a half demon when C’s visions start to take a toll on her. Safe to say they have talked about D, more than we’ve seen onscreen. Gunn didn't seem surprised at his mention.

Anyway, that's my very normal and unbiased analysis so far. I'm still rewatching (haven’t gotten to S5), so if anyone has noticed other Angel/Doyle moments I've missed, PLEASE tell me. I need more evidence for my completely reasonable conclusions :)

i want to do a dru cosplay for a con but can't seem to find a dress like this one. anyone have any links to affordable dru style dresses thanks! EDIT: idk why the title is like that lol

Second worst thing about Season 4.

Does anyone have links to lorne merch, I’m going to buy the funko but I would love to get some more stuff with him cause he’s my favourite character!

Shouldn't Angel's superhuman strenght be more than enough to toss them away like flies?

As a matter of fact he launched another orderly across the room effortlessly just a few seconds prior getting inexplicably restrained by other two.

FYI James Marsters Twin Cities Con photo ops, inc a duo w/ Seth Green, are now available for pre-sale.

Grab yours here.

https://jm-news.link/TwinCitiesCon2026

This is my second rewatch of Angel. First as a real adult lol. And the entire time I was rewatching, I was thoroughly enjoying myself, but was dreading this episode... The arrival of Illyria. Which means the departure of... And it's just as bad as I remember it. I don't understand why they went that route! Why they had to kill my girl? Why they wrote Gunn to make that choice? That entire storyline pissed me all the way off the first time I watched it and here I am, pissed again. I don't remember how the story ends. But I distinctly remember getting to this part of the series and being sour/disappointed/annoyed/sad/pissed off and don't remember it getting better. 😭

Just wanted to share my sorrow.

Throughout the episode, Lorne recounted the events of "Spin the Bottle". The final scene was deeply sad, revealing that he was all alone at Caritas, there was no audience to listen to him, as he realized, with a sense of melancholy, that by using the memory spell on Cordelia, he had set in motion the chain of events that led to Jasmine's arrival on Earth and Cordelia's death.

I was considering where in the timeline Lorne might have delivered that monologue, and i believe it must have been after the episode "Origin" in Season 5. Logically speaking, once Jasmine appeared, Lorne became her servant and wouldn't have had the time to recount such a story, furthermore, he mentions Connor in his tale, and we know that, for the first half of the season, he couldn't have remembered Connor due to Cyvus Vail's spell. Looking at it rationally, he must have told the story after "Origin", once Wesley destroyed the Orlon Window and the memories of Connor resurfaced. As we know, Jasmine's arrival on Earth contributed to Connor's spychological breakdown, forcing Angel to agree to work for Wolfram&Hart a decision that set off a chain of events ultimately leading to Fred's death. This explains the profound sadness Lorne expresses in his monologue from "Spin the Bottle". Through the memory-altering spell, Lorne inadvertently set in motion the events that led to the deaths of both Cordelia and Fred.