Deprograming and Deconstructing resources:

Since leaving AA a few days ago, I've gone down a rabbit hole researching its history, culture, and practices. I tend to hyperfocus on topics that interest me, and this has become something I can't stop thinking about. The more I learn, the more confused I am about how AA became so influential and why it is still so prevalent today.

One thing I particularly struggle to understand is why people with seemingly stable, long-term sobriety continue coming back. Do people genuinely enjoy making recovery a central part of their lives? Is it the community, the structure, or simply having something to fill their time? I understand that people need connection and purpose, but I wonder how much of people's lives can become organized around AA without them questioning it.

I'm also fascinated by the psychology of how people become so deeply invested in the program. The expectations around sponsorship, the amount of time members are encouraged to devote to meetings and service, and the idea that you eventually help bring other people into the same system all seem to reinforce that investment. How do people distinguish between a community that genuinely supports them and one that gradually becomes their entire world?

I feel particularly conflicted about my sponsor, who I liked. She started AA as a teenager, and nearly all her friendships and relationships seem to revolve around it. I feel bad thinking critically about something that has been such a huge part of her life, and I wonder what it would be like to question or leave a community that has shaped your identity and social circle for years or even decades.

On a personal level, I'm struggling with leaving without telling the people I'd started building relationships with. I feel guilty disappearing, but I'm also afraid that staying in contact will pull me back in. Some people were genuinely kind to me, which makes it difficult to reconcile those relationships with the things I've since questioned about the program. I had such a willingness to go along with everything they said.

I'd especially love to hear from people who were deeply involved, had years of sobriety, and eventually left. What made you stay for so long? What finally changed your perspective? Did you struggle with guilt, losing friendships, or worrying about people you left behind? How do people end up trusting a sponsor or program more than their own judgment, even when something feels wrong? Did you have a desire to do research and understand AA afterward? Did you believe the things said in meetings and the BB? Why does no one seem to question AA ideology?

I'm not trying to invalidate people who credit AA with saving their lives. I'm genuinely trying to understand how something can be so helpful to some people while also creating experiences that others describe as harmful or cult-like. I'd appreciate hearing about the psychological and social aspects of leaving, rather than just which alternative recovery program people chose.

This video beautifully explained why being in XA really handicapped me further (the shame cycle & reinforcement of lack of self trust) which is critical to being a fully formed healthy mature adult. The constant deferring to others in the group, the always sharing what’s “wrong” and needs to be “worked on” till one literally dies bc it’s “incurable”. She’s gives some great questions to ask oneself in practice of building self trust.

The deconstruction of this self doubt has been arduous to say the least AND it can be turned around and nurtured successfully on a deep level.

I wanted to share this with you all bc I believe someone out there will find this helpful too, especially the recovering ppl pleasers and chronic self doubters.

Warning: big wall of text incoming

TLDR;

- drank alcoholically for 20+ years, daily and with periodic serious binges

- spent 10+ years trying to get sober in AA: thousands of meetings, multiple sponsors, repeatedly went through all 12 steps, chaired meetings, etc

- despite all of that, kept relapsing every few weeks/months

- finally realized that AA was doing me more harm than good, and quit attending

- feeling awesome on Day 111 of sobriety and have had zero thoughts of drinking

------------

I started drinking heavily sometime around 2003 or so. Up to that point I'd had a fairly typical relationship with alcohol, drinking socially a couple times a week and only occasionally to the point of feeling "drunk". But a number of traumatic life events around that time had a terrible effect on my mental health, and I started to self-medicate by drinking every afternoon. What began as one or two straight vodkas over ice soon turned into 4, 5, 8 or more, every day. I was actively hiding my drinking from my wife, and though she sometimes suspected something was up, she had no idea how bad it had gotten.

This went on for over a decade. By some miracle I never got a DUI, though I drove drunk hundreds of times, wrecking two cars in the process, both times narrowly escaping being caught out. To this day I carry a huge amount of guilt and shame for having put the world at such risk by driving under the influence SO often.

During that decade I worked remotely as a software engineer for a company in another city. My only coworker in our little office/data center was one of my closest friends. He liked vodka as much as I did, and we spent every day getting lit, writing code and complaining to each other about how awful our jobs and bosses were. We fed each others' bad habits and bad attitudes, and the drinking got more and more extreme. We drank frightening amounts of Ketel One, every day for over a decade.

Some time in late 2015 I finally decided to try to quit drinking. My wife was increasingly frustrated and angered by my deception and my belligerent behavior when drunk. I denied drinking even when it was obvious, to the point where she actually thought I was suffering from dementia because I insisted so emphatically that I wasn't drunk every time she would catch me. It was beyond ridiculous.

I had no idea how to get help. I had heard a little about AA, mostly negative things about the religious aspects of it, which immediately made me suspect. I was reluctant but out of ideas, so I figured I should at least try it out.

For the first couple of years I actually enjoyed the meetings, the camaraderie, and the feeling of not having to suffer alone any more. I learned a lot about addiction and about myself. I met some cool people, and I started to believe that AA would lead me to recover. I managed to put some sober time together, but never could get out of the cycle of relapse. Sometimes a few days, sometimes a few weeks, once I even got over two years sober - but that little voice of temptation would eventually re-appear in my head, and I would pick up the bottle again, every time. No amount of step work or service work or meetings seemed to change anything, and I got more and more frustrated by my inability to escape the cycle of relapse.

I liked my final sponsor, he's truly a good guy and he means well. He says that AA saved his life, and I believe him. However, his only suggestion after every time I relapsed was "let's talk again about powerlessness", and it finally dawned on me just how damaging that mindset had become for me. Calling myself an alcoholic every day in a meeting, focusing on powerlessness... these were the things that were actually keeping me in the relapse cycle!

I stopped going to meetings, but continued to work on myself through therapy, exercise, and meditation - and it's like a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I feel liberated, I feel confident, I feel like whatever demon possessed me for so many years has finally taken its leave, and the compulsion to drink has disappeared completely.

I'm glad that AA seems to work for some people, and as I said, I learned a lot from my time in the rooms. I'm also sure that it ended up being more harmful than helpful for me, and that my decision to leave it was the right one.

My only message to anyone struggling: don't give up no matter HOW many times you have to restart the sobriety clock! I had literally hundreds of "Day one"s, and had convinced myself that I was doomed to a grim alcoholic future. Stepping away from AA has restored my faith in myself and my future.

I started seeing a girl shortly before she decided to go to treatment for fentanyl. I have no experience with the stuff. She’s now out of inpatient rehab and lives in a sober living house, within a 30 minute drive from me. I want to keep seeing her, and sometimes I have absolutely no idea what to say to her. I know that everyone’s journey is different, and that’s okay. I know that I don’t want to project my experiences onto her because I know she’s dealing with and processing her own experience, and needs to find her own way. And that’s okay, too. So I’m here to ask this…

How do I make this work?

So far, her reaction to sobriety, life after recent addiction, and the world in general has been exactly as expected. Good days and not so good days, milestones and roadblocks, highs and lows, but an overall positive outlook.

And then there’s me. I’m a drinker. Rarely to excess, and not daily. Years and years and years ago, I went through a period where I did a lot of blow. But my path was different. I didn’t need to put a whole lot of thought or effort into it, I just woke up one day and didn’t do it anymore. So as stated above, I have absolutely no reference point for the physical withdrawals and emotional pain she’s experiencing.

I know the big stuff not to do. Don’t put booze in front of her, avoid trigger words and places, don’t expect perfection, and don’t put any extra pressure on her. But those are the dont’s. What are the do’s? Do I offer advice? Do I keep my mouth shut? Do I offer a shoulder on the bad days or give her space? What does a recovering fentanyl addict need, and how do I help without unintentionally hurting her process?

Any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance.

I am unfortunately starting over at 2 days of sobriety and just needing some advice/guidance. Long story short, I was sober for almost a full year, and did so through getting more heavily involved with my religion, along with attending AA regularly and getting a sponsor.

I unfortunately had a very bad falling out with my sponsor who I was always very respectful of, but had requested to step back from their sponsorship due to them moving incredibly slowly through my steps (while I asked constantly to work through step work), and them having several other obligations come up through my time working with them while they promised me time and again their personal obligations would not impede my work. Well, I had made it almost a full year and wasn’t even 1/3 way through the steps, and confronted them once again with my concerns and told them I think it would be best given them pulling away from me more that I find another sponsor. Well, they exploded on me, told me it was my fault that I relied on them (wtf?) and basically manipulated my fears I had disclosed against me in a very toxic way that sent me into a spiral. They also used to tell me private things about other sponsees, and I know for a fact she was talking about me with one of her AA friends, and I believe said friend encouraged her to pull away from me even more. But somehow I was “at fault” (even though I was doing zero finger pointing but just simply stating their sponsorship was no longer working for me). I know the decision to drink is 100% on me, but I became very resentful of the whole program, and also found not a single person has reached out to me since stopping attending meetings. Meanwhile I had reached out to a couple people when I noticed them not attending. This is also someone with many friends in the program and I am hesitant to return as a result of this fact. Guess we are really alone in this journey, but the meetings really gave a lot of false promises.

I am still feeling very bitter about AA as a whole, and while I am thinking of returning, I’m going to be avoiding some of the meetings I know my sponsor will be attending. I’ve also seen them ice out their former long term partner at meetings they both used to attend, and now that partner also doesn’t attend any of the meetings my ex sponsor goes to. In my opinion, that is just 2 of us that have actually had our sobriety negatively impacted by this one person.

I wish I could find recovery help outside of AA, and that’s why I am here. I really don’t want to go back to AA, but recognize I need help and am looking for alternatives that people here have found helpful.

Does anybody know of alternatives that have worked long term? I also do go to therapy and my therapist has been with me throughout my entire journey, and has done more for me than AA or the program, despite my recent setback.

Ah, the great wise elder old-timer who's been in the program for decades, hasn't had a drink the entire time, and still centers life around the outdated big stupid book, steps, and promises. The usual catchphrases such as keep coming back, it works if you work it, let go and let "God," meeting makers make it, your best thinking got you here, keep it simple, all that BS.

They're chugging coffee, wolfing down snacks, and chain-smoking just to make it through. A misery they've decided to put themselves through, because they're so damn brainwashed that they genuinely believe they're going to slip-up (after decades of sobriety, mind you) if they miss these meetings. Of course they say things like, "I'm only here for the newcomer." Some of the meetings I attended, THERE WERE NEVER ANY NEWCOMERS! These were rural meetings in the middle of nowhere, with the same small handful of old-timers getting on the soapbox each and every week to re-visit the same story they've been telling for the past 20/30/40/50 YEARS! MOVE ON ALREADY!

I'll never forget some Grade-A absolute bullshit I heard one time at a meeting. The person who was chairing the meeting was skipping out on some big major family event. Another member, one who wasn't quite "old-timer" status yet, asked the guy, "Why didn't you just skip the meeting today?" His response... "I can't skip the meeting. This is my homegroup, and I'm the chairperson."

I left the program 5 weeks ago, and I've never felt so free in so long. I'm not on the brink of relapse, I haven't had a sip since leaving the program, and I actually feel much better about my recovery since leaving. Nothing but positives have come since I left that awful program. More free time on my hands, less actual thinking about alcohol, more time to spend on activities that are worthwhile.

Glad to be out of that mess!

I think it could be a rational suggestion to not feel like nobody is is every going to understand you or that it can be unhelpful to always regard oneself as a special case.

How it often get used though is pretty pathological and culty.

"All alcoholics are but one alcoholic" Every oldtimer can call out everybody in the program for their bullshit because we all have the same disease. They've swam in the bullshit the longest and can spot your shit before you do.

"AA is a jealous God and you shall have no other Gods before it." Terminal uniqueness sometimes gets used to tell people they can't talk about or identify with ADHD, depression, bipolar, a traumatic history and much more. Your trying to make yourself special when your just a drunk like the rest of us. Sometimes they'll even outright say the other identification puts distance between you and the rest of the herd which is very dangerous.

Sometimes the terminal uniqueness trope is part of excusing berating people, usually alongside directives for humility.

/end rant

“Hey Mr Toilet Paper Roll, I really want to drink. I’m completely powerless and only you can save me. Send me a sign if I shouldn’t drink”

”…..”

“Nothing? Well guess I can drink then“

It sounds so stupid but it’s barely an exaggeration of what I’ve seen play out with multiple atheists AA member. Tell them they can’t save themselves, their friends can’t save them, only an inanimate object can, then act suprised when they relapse because le object did jack shit. Ofc they don’t want atheists literally worshiping rolls of toilet paper - it’s supposed to be a metaphor for the idea higher power - but they fundamentally misunderstand how atheists think. They seem to think we don’t believe in the Christian god but do believe in some vauge concept of a god, at least some type of spiritual something, when really we don’t believe in a god at all

So I have read way to much stuff on here and I am still unsure how to do it. I am terrified to go into PWD. My boyfriend and I have been taking between 500-750 MG a day of 7oh (7stax & loud stacker packs) for 4 months. I have tried to tapper down and now it’s been 250-400 a day. We have subs but both have experienced PWD in the past due to fent and we have 3 year old twins so we don’t have the luxury of being sick. We need to get over this as soon as possible. We plan to do it one after the other instead of us both being down for the count.

So basically I’m asking for the best advice on how to do this. Thank you!!

I’ve been taking it for about 18 months now. What started off as just Kratom every few days only on the weekends, morphed into 7OH 4 times a day now.

To me this is so new I have never dealt with any drugs in my life, never had any interest in anything and was clean my whole life (36M). Now I’m super embarrassed and really really struggling to get off of this.

I tried to stop cold turkey and that’s how I learned about the withdrawals. I couldn’t make it past 28 hours. The restlessness felt like I was crawling out of my skin with no end in sight. Mixed with insomnia I couldn’t do it.

Now I met with my doctor they prescribed me gabapentin 300mg and Clonidine 0.1 mg. They want me to taper off it mixed with the prescriptions to help ease the symptoms.

I just got done with day 1 and it was still a major struggle even with the prescriptions. I was taking about 90-100mg of 7OH a day. Today I cut it back to 45mg plus the prescription. I plan on keeping it at 45mg for a week or so then removing another dose to bring it down to 30mg.

Any advice anyone can provide will be so grateful. I’m so nervous, scared and embarrassed.

Do you think it would be better to completely switch off 7OH and go to Kratom and taper off Kratom because it’s less concentrate?

Hello everyone! I originally started taking subs about 6 weeks ago to get off 7. I have now been taking 0.5MG a day, the entire 6 weeks I have not taken more than .5mg daily .I just wanted to know if I will experience withdrawals? I'm sure I will but how bad? I've never been an opioid user before so any advice would mean a lot.
Thank you!

I was researching something. Me and two friends were going to do something a little anxiety provoking. They both wanted a drink first to calm down. About 3/4rs of the way through their first, I suggested we get going soon. Both said they needed at least one more drink and asked me how I coped without alcohol. I said I guessed when you have alcohol unavailable to you your body must get used to it

It turns out it's true.

When people.drink to curb anxiety, it becomes a ritual and they become conditioned to believe they need it. More interesting, they never acclimate and become less nervous wirhctime. Part of what they said happens without substances is your body lewrns from experience that the fear was unwarranted and not to get it to start. But alcohol actually interferes with that process so you end up in an infinite loop.

I can't beluee this doesn't come up more. It explains why people who are off substances for a while say life seems easier after a bit. It really does. Because ykyr body and nerves stop having anticipatory fear.

It also confirms a thought I post often on r/alanon. For the addicted person it takes a huge leap of faith to cook into treatment. They know they are going too have terrible anxiety about life that alcohol csn reduce. They have to.make a leap of faith that it will get better despite this true belief right now

it's a replacement for the pressing addiction affecting people when they arrive, but being a zealot for aa is never a lack of addiction, just a more socially acceptable form of one. (not too socially acceptable though, as it's strictly enforced as anonymous i suppose.) and that's it. that's all "newcomers" need to know about it i think at this point.

imagine thinking your addiction to / cognitive dissonance around a different thing is the best (or only) solution. that's desperation, which i don't like to look down on people for having when it comes to a fatal at worst, life-ruining at best, problem. it's also the best they were offered in some cases. i feel for people in the 12 step community that can strongly reinforce the black and white thinking that got them there.

i think people that really enjoy aa fall into different categories, but a big one is a community of people who have a new thing that helps them feel in control, in a way that can often become just as extreme as substances were for them. many people become evangelical about aa or other 12 step communities. i have only met a couple of people in my almost 20 years of going that had real balance about it, that didn't become evangelical about it.

i've noticed on other recovery pathways and in other groups people don't have this all or nothing ideology, they remain sober but don't feel the need to be in control of things (or a broader narrative about addicts) the way they once needed to feel. people in the program i know (and i know a lot) still seem to be desperately and constantly seeking a sense of control within their groups and narratives about their lives. and THAT is the addiction we all had when we used, and it's genuinely an addiction most humans grapple with, just not most commonly with severe substance use.

i often wonder what the future of addiction treatment will look like, and how much more the numbers of 12 step fellowships will have to dwindle before it's no longer acknowledged as effective within treatment settings and just offered as one of many options, but never suggested as your main course unless you choose that for yourself.

data shows people do so much better with options and carving out their own sober life by plugging in different things that feel like a good fit for their needs including different support groups and 1:1 therapy, just like people find their own systems when faced with other ailments and circumstances.

the black and white thinking is so limiting for everyone involved, and that bothers me mainly because i want to see people afflicted with this treacherous awful problem feel whole again, really whole, bcs the pain is real.

anyway, i love this page.

I am on 708. I was doing around 1500 mg a day now I am doing 4 mg of Suboxone every other day just about I am really trying to make sure I do not build up a tolerance for the Suboxone. I took 16 mg first 24 hours after 70 stop then I took 8 mg the following day 8 mg the third day and I was rocked all three of those days. I could not do anything by day four I was working out in the morning again hitting the Sauna, and then I tried a little bit of Kratom soda because I taper off the Suboxone, but then I started getting again so I haven’t but I did take another in total 16 mg over the course of four days does anybody know how long it takes to build up a tolerance to Suboxone because I really just want to stop everything all at once and get my energy back up before winter time comes

Hi everyone, I don’t really post but I am desperate. I have been drinking every single night for the last 3 years. I usually average 4 truly tall cans a night. I can’t tell my husband because he will leave me. I have no one to turn to. These last two weeks I’ve spiraled and have been drinking 6! Now I’m having withdrawal symptoms during the day and I’m terrified. I don’t have medical insurance until December and I am so scared I’m going to die. I don’t know how I let it get out of control. It’s weird because no one can ever tell I’ve been drinking. I keep reading if I quit cold turkey I can die. Today I had to drink before my daughter’s game (I didn’t drive) just so that I wasn’t shaking. I’m in my own personal hell and I’m so scared. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hey everyone,

I quit alcohol nearly 10 months ago and it's changed my life entirely. I feel much less comfortable staying out late and certain social gatherings I used to love are feeling stressful and alienating. I can no longer enjoy dance parties, raves, loud concerts as much. Is there any non AA sources on how to navigate all this?

I'm trying to become a day light social person but options are limited most days. I'm increasingly just choosing not to leave the house and watch movies all day.

The gym and yoga studio are helpful but I can realistically only hang out there for a couple of hours.

Thanks

I don't understand this term you hear constantly in AA settings. Is there such thing as inactive addiction? To me someone is either addicted or not addicted. It feels like a prefix added to further demonize a bad thing that doesn't help anyone or increase accuracy. I guess I'm making this to see if anyone wants to assert that it is a useful term. AA folks consider themselves addicted but not actively? I would argue active addiction should just be called addiction, and AA guys should refer to themselves as "not addicted but I identify as addicted" or something. Is there such thing as inactive addiction? This term always struck me as snooty

It wasn't my first NA meeting. Maybe my second or third. Someone asked me "how are you doing?" And I was honest, "I'm struggling today". Ok, maybe I was hoping for a bit of sympathy, but I was being honest. I'll always remember the reply. "Well, I stopped struggling when I stopped trying to run the show and realised the answers in that book."

Of course, I should have turned around and walked out, never to return. But the thing is - I needed this. At least, I needed something, and this was here right now. So I stayed, I put up with these attacks, and I learned to speak in ways that discouraged them. I quickly realised everyone else was doing the same.

What I only realised years later is that all this is intentional. They want to make NA hostile. They want to scare away anyone who's not so desperate that they will put up with being spoken to like that. They want it because it fits their narrative. "NA works" When it doesn't work, that's not NA's fault, the person just didn't want it.

I saw the same in rehab. Not a 12-step rehab, a therapeutic community (in the UK). Slightly different style, less personal attacks, more warped takes on personal responsibility. Mop this floor, come on, everyone's waiting for you, hurry up, oh my god, you missed a bit. It served their purpose - about 50% of new intakes left within a week.

The thing is, success at quitting an addiction is almost entirely determined by the individual. All the psychosocial interventions, they might move the dial a little bit, but it will never be more than a little bit. By being cruel to scare off some people early on, it makes it look like the rehab is better than it really is - the cruelty bonus.

And the thing is, they missed the point. The point of treatment is not for people who are already going to get well to sit in a circle patting each other on the back. The point of treatment is to help those borderline people. It's to keep them safe for a while until they are ready to make that commitment.