r/nbadiscussion • u/kasmic_89 • Aug 07 '22
Current Events The NBA Bubble: An Asterisk!?
George Karl recently mocked the NBA bubble again saying " Can We Please Stop Talking About The ‘20 Bubble Like It Was The Same Event As All Other NBA Playoffs?" Most everyone agrees that the2020 season deserves some kind of asterisk. After reviewing the data, I agree with most everyone. The 2020 NBA Playoffs require an asterisk. Though not as Karl implies. Not negative one.
Home court advantage and fan filled stadiums are a fun and intergyral part of the NBA. Though, in some sense, the NBA Bubble gave us an opportunity to see basketball in a purer form than we otherwise see it. The 2020 Playoffs, as compared to other playoffs, was not tarnished by home court advantage. Basketball, skill and teamwork weigh heavier when we remove the noise.
What do you think?
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Aug 07 '22
I enjoyed The Bubble experience. As a recently renewed fan, it was fun to actually hear the players on the court and the coaches.
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u/kasmic_89 Aug 07 '22
Same, it was cool being able to hear the on-court chat we would never hear in a filled arena.
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u/agoddamnlegend Aug 07 '22
Are you gaslighting me or what? That didn’t happen. They muted on court audio and pumped in fake crowd noise. My biggest complaint about the bubble was that they didn’t just air the on-court audio and tried to make it sound like a regular game
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Aug 07 '22
Sorry, but maybe it was just the first few games or so. They couldn't be heard all the time, just when they were particularly loud. I also remember them eventually adding crowd-noise to some of the games.
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u/trevorde11 Aug 07 '22
I think the later rounds they probably started adding in crowd noise but those first couple games I definitely remember being able to hear what what being said on the court
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u/agoddamnlegend Aug 07 '22
Yeah when they announced the bubble I remember getting super excited about the format because I assumed the broadcast would be like sitting courtside with no crowd to drown it out. And was so disappointed when they made it just sound like a shitty made up version of a regular game.
To anybody from the NBA lurking here — I would pay twice as much for League Pass if you gave me full unedited on court audio. Somebody please make it happen
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u/HalfEatenBanana Aug 08 '22
I’d love unedited info court audio but there’s about a zero percent chance the nba would green light that lol
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u/bchhun Aug 07 '22
Doesn’t need an asterisk because everyone knows what happened that year …
But also, what’s the point of fighting for home court advantage if there is no home court? If the regular season is played knowing the season is shorter and playoffs played in the bubble, everything gets distorted.
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u/kasmic_89 Aug 07 '22
I agree, I would not want to change how the NBA Playoffs are currently done. Rather, I just don't think the bubble playoffs deserve all the hate they get. As a fan, I like the idea that the data shows home court matters. Just makes me want to go in person even more.
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u/Iroh21 Aug 07 '22
I thought the bubble was some of the best playoff games I’ve seen, they balled out
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u/iJon_v2 Aug 07 '22
Man those Mitchell/Murray games were insane.
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u/GimmeLukaCummiespls Aug 08 '22
Who was that dude on the pacers that turned into prime MJ for a couple games? TJ Warren?
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u/RIPseantaylor Aug 08 '22
What Murray/Mitchell did that series was literally the greatest back and forth action I've seen in 20 years of watching the playoffs.
It was the first round and we knew neither was gonna win the chip, but from a purely basketball perspective I've never seen two guys going shot for shot like that in a series. Forreal I'm bout to watch highlights during my lunch break.
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u/murrayforthree Aug 08 '22
It's insane how stacked the Nuggets are now since bubble.. I miss bubble days tho.
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u/Taylosaurus Aug 07 '22
I loved the bubble so much. The basketball was sooooo good
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u/inbz Aug 07 '22
I especially loved early in the bubble. There were 4 games on each day, every day. For such a shit year when we were all locked in our homes, it was nice to just have basketball playing all day.
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u/binger5 Aug 07 '22
There were 4 games on each day, every day. For such a shit year when we were all locked in our homes, it was nice to just have basketball playing all day.
Exactly. I swear this is why March Madness is so popular. You get games from 10am to midnight for 4 days straight. The majority of the games might be shit, but it's still a whole day of basketball.
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u/VLHACS Aug 07 '22
Less pressure to please the crowd, less pressure to play hero ball, less pressure that would otherwise force mistakes. Just bunch of dudes playing ball at its highest level to win the game.
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u/Kvenner001 Aug 07 '22
Honestly I think they were just better rested and not worn from a whole ass season. But Orlando is also my home team and their arena crowd is weak at best. When Miami or Boston play there they usually have more fans. So my opinion on home court crowds is probably not the best.
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Aug 07 '22
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u/executivesphere Aug 07 '22
That’s your opinion. Personally, I loved it. I’ve even gone back and rewatched a few bubble games and they were great.
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u/trevorde11 Aug 07 '22
I’ve seen people say they didn’t watch it because it felt like a scrimmage. Like they think the quality of play went down because they can’t see faces in the crowd lol
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Aug 08 '22
Donovan vs Jamal? Dame vs the nuggets? Luka vs the clippers? Lebron winning a chip for the lakers? So much good basketball was played during that time
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Aug 08 '22
The bubble got me back into the NBA, which I hadn’t cared about since my Sonics were stolen. There was great basketball almost every night. I got to learn about all these new young bloods tearing it up. Got me to become fans of teams I’ve never cared about.
Also, during Covid lockdown, those games kept me somewhat sane. Somewhat.
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u/Cloudable Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22
From a fan's perspective the bubble was strange and surreal in the best ways. It was like a dystopian remix of the NBA. Everyone's trapped in Disney World, there's fans lagging on TV screens and Westbrook is yelling at the 2 little kids in the "crowd". It felt like a deconstruction of the sport, showing how at the end of the day its just 10 dudes running around. To say it's "lesser than" other years really takes away from the spectacle of it, and we may never see something like it again
The Bubble was basically Marvel Secret Wars
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u/HalfEatenBanana Aug 08 '22
Lol I completely forgot about the fans being on the screen in the background!! What an absolute trip that was
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u/AccomplishedAd8789 Aug 08 '22
It did horrible in viewership though and fans did say how much they didn’t like it at the time
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Aug 08 '22
Agreed. 2020 NBA gave us a little bit of sanity for a brief period of time, and it was amazing regular season and playoff basketball (even if the finals kind of fizzled out). Why the hell are we so quick to bash it?
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u/WaxMuseumPodcast Aug 07 '22
I really enjoyed this Tom Haberstroh article that came out before the 2020 Finals. He basically tried to make the case that every year's winner could have some sort of asterisk for why they won. Obviously, some years made more sense than others, but it was fun to think about.
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u/CitizenCue Aug 07 '22
Most of those examples aren’t even remotely in the same category as a global pandemic.
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u/wembanyama_ Aug 08 '22
Fr the pandemic fucked the lakers. Ruined their home court advantage
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u/CitizenCue Aug 08 '22
I’m not trying to take anything away from the lakers. But the conditions were extremely unique. That said, I’d say they were the favorite either way.
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u/hacky_potter Aug 08 '22
The conditions were unique but it effected everyone the same across the board. That’s sort of why I don’t get the argument that it lessens the chip.
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u/Helpful_Classroom204 Aug 08 '22
2011 NBA champions: Dallas Mavericks* Asterisk reason: They played a lot of zone. Unsportsmanlike conduct. Penalty: title vacated along with dignity.
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u/DeliciousMolasses442 Aug 07 '22
A lot of those listed are absolutely ridiculous like he wasn't even trying
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u/TheComedicManifesto Aug 07 '22
That's the point I think. He's saying how ridiculous it is to make up asterisks about certain titles, because you can more or less do that for every single one
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u/Sad-Manufacturer-501 Aug 08 '22
When is an asterik acceptable. We will never use it on say a favourite winning(unless they are very disliked). As though the events of a season only matter if they benefit an unfancied team.
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u/Connect-Craft538 Aug 07 '22
From what ik (maybe wrong) but everyone had to go through the same things and nobody had a advantage. So how does it have a asterisk ? You would think playing in a empty gym with no distractions, the best team would when the chip.
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u/catchmesleeping Aug 07 '22
Like when the Spurs won during the lock out season, everyone had the same opportunity.
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u/zestful_villain Aug 07 '22
The teams and players played just as hard.
Same court dimension, same ball, same rim, same rules.
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u/ZincHead Aug 07 '22
Thankfully I don't hear anyone talking about that championship as needing an asterisk anymore.
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u/DamianLillard0 Aug 07 '22
90% of the current online NBA community didn’t even watch basketball at that point in time lmao
In 10 years people will hardly remember the bubble was a thing when talking about championships. It will just be a cool TIL or blip on Wikipedia
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u/TheOneWhosCensored Aug 08 '22
But it’s not the same. In that case, everything was the same. Number of games, start and end times, location, rest. But with the bubble and COVID, you had a season suddenly stop, rest between then and the resume, games resumed for standings in a neutral location, players stuck in said location. It wasn’t the same as a shorten season, it was, from the perspective of a normal season, an unfair stop and then resume.
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u/LeonidasSpacemanMD Aug 08 '22
They’re saying it was the same for every team. There were plenty of unique circumstances; these applied to every team equally
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u/Pmike9 Aug 07 '22
Didn't the heat win during the lockout season? I thought the spurs won the next year.
2 lazy to Google it before posting this, sorry :( hope my memory serves me well still
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u/airwalker12 Aug 07 '22
The Lakers were the #1 seed and they didn't get any home court advantage.... It literally made it harder for the best teams.
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u/Nalicar52 Aug 08 '22
The main argument I see is the extra rest they got since there team was older and more likely to go down to wear and tear then the younger teams if covid didn’t cause a break.
I don’t really agree it made much of a difference though and don’t think the championship has an asterisk.
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u/daballer23 Aug 08 '22
How do you not think the rest made a significant difference? The lakers have been an injury riddled team every single season EXCEPT for the one year there wasn’t a 4 month hiatus lol. The rest absolutely played a factor
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u/mayor_of_tendietown Aug 07 '22
iirc the top seeds were put in the more expensive disney hotels while the lower seeds had worse accommodations. So there was some advantage to having a higher seed
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u/secretreddname Aug 07 '22
It's all at Disneyworld. It's not the like the disparity was the Aman vs a Motel 6.
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u/Yg5g Aug 07 '22
3 hotels. Top 4 seeds either side were in the most expensive followed by middle of pack teams followed by play-in hopefuls and the undefeated bubble Suns.
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u/mudflaps6969 Aug 08 '22
Lol how would that make it harder? Taking away an advantage doesn’t make it harder
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u/ElegantEpitome Aug 07 '22
How is playing on a neutral court harder? There was no “home court” so this argument doesn’t make sense?
I don’t see how this would be any different than a bunch of pickup teams playing in some tournament. The best teams would win. Are you implying the #1 seeds were only #1 because they played on their home courts?
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u/airwalker12 Aug 07 '22
A top seeded team wins 80+% of the time at home..Getting an extra home game is a huge advantage in a 7 game series.
Playing 4 at home and 3 on the road gives and advantage to the higher seed
And I'm not sure what your question even means, every team plays half at home and half on the road during the regular season.
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u/calman877 Aug 07 '22
You're viewing an asterisk as a sign that it's a lesser championship or something, I get it because that's how people usually interpret an asterisk but an asterisk in my view just means it was different than usual. Every year is different in its own way, but all teams being in the same location with no fans is a very extreme difference.
I think the best team won but also think we can note that the conditions were very different than usual. Some players got really hot in those playoffs who haven't had the same results since just as an example. So I don't think those playoffs are as representative of the NBA now as they should be for such a recent post-season, but that doesn't make it count any less.
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Aug 07 '22
This is true, an asterisk just means it requires further context, I.e. a note at the bottom of the page.
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u/disappointed_darwin Aug 07 '22
You keep putting out reasonable takes like this and you’re going to get cratered.
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u/SuperMan-in-a-hottub Aug 07 '22
Every year there’s something special or unusual that happens in the playoffs. 2021 had several notable players getting injured and the heat possibly had a fluke season. Same could be said for the heat this year and the mavs too (I don’t think Brunson is gonna achieve the same success). You could literally put an asterisk on every single season (there’s a video abt this online I forgot by who)
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u/arejay00 Aug 07 '22
Injuries happen every season, it is part of NBA basketball. Having no crowd and no home court advantage has never happened.
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u/Master_Who Aug 07 '22
The only asterisk is that teams that were injury prone and needed a lot of "load management" had a unique advantage to every other season where they likely would be fucked in terms of injuries and things come playoffs. Teams that were deeper and had players that could iron man didn't have their normal competitive advantage when older injury prone teams like the Lakers got a huge break pre-playoffs.
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u/CardinalRoark Aug 08 '22
So the ridiculously long season that really should be shortened is an unfair advantage to less injury prone dudes?
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u/Master_Who Aug 08 '22
Unfair is your word choice, people in sports who don't get injured tend to have an advantage yes...having months of rest before the playoffs is not normal regardless of a potentially shortened season so not sure what you are on about.
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u/OGKAT13 Aug 08 '22
I think it's mainly because of the perspective of (and some NBA players even said this) with no fans brings no pressure so NBA players started playing, not naturally? Or basically started going off, you know, TJ Warren, Bubble Burke, it was a role players paradise.
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u/BigFatM8 Aug 08 '22
Just about every playoffs has a few role players stepping up. This means nothing.
Besides none of the Lakers role players, other than Rondo who's known as a playoff performer stepped up their game massively from the reg season.
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Aug 08 '22
I tried looking up who said that it was easier without fans and couldn’t find anything
Only thing close was this and can’t find a quote like that
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u/jimmyre10 Aug 07 '22
My biggest reasoning (not that I actually think the bubble title deserves an asterisk) is that LeBron and AD both got 3 months of rest right before the playoffs started. Obviously, everyone got the same amount of time to rest, but one could argue that the Lakers benefitted the most from it, since their two stars have recent significant injury history
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u/cpfb15 Aug 07 '22
See this is also a positive asterisk for me. If everyone was healthy, recovered, and playing at 100% power, wouldn’t that make it an even more difficult postseason to grind through?
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Aug 08 '22
But that’s not the game that’s played and not the established ruleset for the history of the NBA. NBA players aren’t going into the season knowing their bodies will take a 3 month break halfway into the season. So they prepare themselves for a grueling 82 game season followed by a long postseason. That’s apart of the game
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u/cpfb15 Aug 08 '22
Big injury fan, huh? Listen if you’re upset that you got to see the healthiest purest basketball played in nba playoff history then I really don’t know what to tell you. If anything the asterisk makes 2020 more valuable than less.
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Aug 07 '22
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u/cpfb15 Aug 07 '22
Beyond AD being unhealthy here and there, the biggest issue with the Lakers since 2020 has been roster formation. That 2020 team was very good. Still though, I agree it was “abnormal from the usual” in that every team had equal amounts of rest and recovery and were able to go into the postseason at 100% strength. I would venture to say no nba playoffs has ever had that luxury. So with 100% health and 100% balance with no home advantage, I just fail to see how the bubble wasn’t one of if not the most difficult chips to win.
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u/KaiserKaiba Aug 07 '22
I mean Clippers and Nuggets have also dealt with injuries the past two years along with the Lakers. Giannis got hurt right before the NBA went on hiatus and got to heal up. It just isn’t a very good argument to single out the Lakers
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u/runningraider13 Aug 07 '22
LeBron joined the Lakers in 2018-19 and AD joined in 2019-20.
In 2018-2019 injuries to LeBron were a major reason that the Lakers missed the palyoffs as LeBron only played 55 games.
In 2019-2020 the Lakers win the title in the bubble after a 3 month break because of covid.
In 2020-2021 injuries to both LeBron and AD significantly reduce their chances to win as LeBron plays only 45 games and AD 36 (out of 72) - Lakers lose in the first round.
In 2021-2022 injuries to both LeBron and AD cause the Lakers to miss the playoffs as LeBron plays only 56 games and AD only 40.
Take from that what you will, the only year LeBron's been on the Lakers and the injuries didn't derail their season is the one cut short with a 3 month break before the playoffs. Maybe they would have held up that year, they were both holding up really well that year. But every other year they haven't.
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u/dwaite1 Aug 08 '22
Weren’t the lakers a top seed before the league was suspended for Covid? Iirc they had just beat the Clippers and Bucks in one weekend, which were two of the best teams in the league.
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u/KaiserKaiba Aug 08 '22
Nobody is disputing that Lakers have dealt with injuries. All I said was it made no sense to single out the Lakers by listing other teams going through their own problems.
Both the Clippers and Nuggets have dealt with injuries in the two seasons following the bubble.
Both the Clippers and Nuggets had one of their guys miss an entire season (Kawhi and Murray this past season).
Kawhi and Paul George have each played less games over the last 3 years than Anthony Davis has. AD missed half the last season and PG only managed 31 games. In Kawhi’s case, he’s missed 2 of the last 5 season entirely due to injuries.
Michael Porter Jr. is young but unlike the other guys named, has actual back issues that he’s been going through.
Lakers def got to benefit from the months of rest… They just weren’t the only team who clearly got that and it didn’t help them any more than it did two other teams who have also been unable to stay healthy.
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u/Connect-Craft538 Aug 07 '22
You can’t say that . Bron didn’t have a significant injury history at that time (still doesn’t in my opinion ) and before the bubble the lakers were already healthy and they were 1st in the west (i think) . Kawhi has significant injury history and got the same amount of time off and still blew a 3-1 lead. So idk if that’s a valid benefit
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u/3moonz Aug 07 '22
everyone is alluding to the best player in that postseason ad. we all know the big question for him and the lakers org is can he stay healthy. and well that question didnt have to be asked that year. or at least the question got modified.
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u/Danny_III Aug 08 '22
Saying AD was the best player that run is like saying Pippen was the best player for all of MJ's runs LMAO
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u/seanjohn8 Aug 07 '22
Wasn’t lebron hurt that VERY previous season? Or did he just play like shit and fail to make the playoffs his first season out west?
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u/Connect-Craft538 Aug 07 '22
He said they had significant injury histories , AD Facts , Bron no . Bron had one ,the first year in LA (at that time) . Other than that , no injury bron had in Cleve and Miami affected the outcome of his success for the year. ( I think could be wrong
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Aug 08 '22
Except, ya know, the season right before and the season right after and the season right after that too
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u/Connect-Craft538 Aug 08 '22
That’s why I said he didn’t have significant injury history AT THAT TIME
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u/runningraider13 Aug 07 '22
There's no reason to restrict yourself to just knowledge known at that time - the fact that injuries have derailed both Lakers seasons since then can inform you on how likely it would be for them to pop up that year, just like if LeBron and AD had been ironmen the past two years people wouldn't really be thinking about the rest advantage helping them.
LeBron joined the Lakers in 2018-19 and AD joined in 2019-20.
In 2018-2019 injuries to LeBron were a major reason that the Lakers missed the palyoffs as LeBron only played 55 games.
In 2019-2020 the Lakers win the title in the bubble after a 3 month break because of covid.
In 2020-2021 injuries to both LeBron and AD significantly reduce their chances to win as LeBron plays only 45 games and AD 36 (out of 72) - Lakers lose in the first round.
In 2021-2022 injuries to both LeBron and AD cause the Lakers to miss the playoffs as LeBron plays only 56 games and AD only 40.
Take from that what you will, the only year LeBron's been on the Lakers and the injuries didn't derail their season is the one cut short with a 3 month break before the playoffs. Maybe they would have held up that year, they were both holding up really well that year. But every other year they haven't.
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u/mayor_of_tendietown Aug 07 '22
this is like saying the 3point line is an advantage for curry because he is the best 3 point shooter. if everyone has the same conditions (in this case the 3 months of rest) even if it benefits one team or player more than others it doesnt make it any less fair
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u/runningraider13 Aug 07 '22
I mean yeah the 3 point line is a huge advantage for Curry and the Warriors. If the NBA were to introduce the 3 point line halfway through the season that would be really unfair and the championship would probably need to have an asterisk.
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u/TheOneWhosCensored Aug 08 '22
But that’s not the same. Rest allows for possible injuries and fatigue that affect games to be gone, and can cool hot streaks. It would be like Curry and Embiid going off for 3 in a game, and at halftime telling both that they couldn’t take another until the 4th. Curry would adapt easier because it’s his normal style. A pause doesn’t benefit everyone equally, and it can harm some.
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u/DylanCarlson3 Aug 08 '22
LeBron and AD both got 3 months of rest right before the playoffs started. Obviously, everyone got the same amount of time to rest, but one could argue that the Lakers benefitted the most from it, since their two stars have recent significant injury history
What you're saying is just blind hatred with no basis in fact.
Before the shutdown, AD had played in 55 of a possible 63 games. He had played 20 of the team's most recent 21 games. LeBron had played 60 of a possible 63 games. The Lakers were one of the teams with the biggest disadvantages going into the bubble, since it took away their home court advantage and Avery Bradley, who was a starter for them that year, opted out of the bubble.
Meanwhile, the Clippers two stars had both individually missed more games than the two Lakers stars combined. Giannis had literally just gone down with a knee injury and needed an MRI, and suddenly got four months off to recover. There's not really a rational argument that the Lakers benefitted more than other contenders.
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u/jimmyre10 Aug 09 '22
Ah yes, “no basis in fact.” Because LeBron missing 53 games and AD missing 78 games the last two seasons since the bubble is an opinion, right?
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Aug 07 '22
Exactly. Injury prone players, and older players benefitted the most from all that rest...
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u/JasonPlattMusic34 Aug 07 '22
The last two years of injuries and failure for the Lakers make that take a real valid rebuttal against the Lakers 2020 ring being “real”, and I say this as a fan.
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u/seanjohn8 Aug 07 '22
I feel like you can’t build a team around Anthony Davis unless you’re guaranteed half a year off like in 2020.
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u/arejay00 Aug 07 '22
It has an asterisk because it was a completely different event than a normal NBA playoffs. Some might find it a “purer” event but it was still very different. Playing with home/road crowd is such an integral part of Playoff basketball. Sure it was pure basketball but it was definitely an incomplete NBA playoffs.
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u/agupta43 Aug 07 '22
Just because everyone’s under the same circumstances doesn’t mean it’s fair. Let’s say you took away the 3 point line for everyone, it would disadvantage the teams that rely more on that
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u/wongrich Aug 07 '22
So by your argument baseball is inherently unfair and all home run records asterisked as the park sizes are different?
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u/avocadoclock Aug 08 '22
You would think playing in a empty gym with no distractions, the best team would when the chip.
But you see, most people's teams didn't win so they feel the need to meaninglessly argue before moving on
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u/Dangerous_Toe_5482 Aug 07 '22
This is going to be an extreme example but based off your logic, if you had the 30 NBA teams compete in a golf tournament instead of basketball and gave the winner the championship, you could still say every team went through the same thing, but that doesn’t mean that championship is the same as every other one.
The reality is the best NBA teams are often filled with players that can adapt the best to playing in away stadiums, they can tune out the pressure of fans, media, noise, they can deal with travel better. Theres a million little differences that would effect certain players more than others. More examples would be how teams with older players or more injury prone players had a large time off to recover, teams with less experienced players had a much less consistent ramp up into the offseason.
Some players may have entered the shut down thinking they were going to start playing again soon, while others may have entered into completely different training protocols assuming there would be a long time off. For example a guy who may have thought the season would resume soon would have an advantage if they stayed focused on skill training, 5v5 drills ect, whereas a guy who maybe assumed the season was done with may have entered into a strength building program and taken time off the court to rehab minor injuries.
I think all these factors heavily influenced why certain players seemed way better than usual.
I don’t think anyone can say the playoffs would’ve ended up the exact same had the season progressed as normal in 2020 so therefore their has to be an asterisk of some kind.
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u/DTFforMBDTF Aug 07 '22
The argument is certain teams were better build to take advantage of that. The Lakers were able to be healthy, which has been what killed em the last couple years.
Randle becoming an all NBA guy is a good example. He’s better suited to take advantage of empty gyms.
I don’t think it deserves an asterisk, but it is important context in weighing championships.
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u/avocadoclock Aug 08 '22
The argument is certain teams were better build to take advantage of that
You know what I say to the teams that didn't benefit from the bubble?
Git gud.
It was pure bball, and it was amazing.
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u/ShoNuff3121 Aug 07 '22
I might make the argument though that it takes less skill to win in an environment where there is less to manage. There’s actually a skill to managing travel, managing sleeping in a bed for the first time, a skill to practicing on your off days in a different gym, etc. The teams and players that can manage these situations the best have an advantage. The bubble actually took away that edge.
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u/mycoffeeiswarm Aug 08 '22
So a championship decided on basketball skill alone, rather than skills like ‘who adjusts better to sleeping in different beds’ is less impressive?
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u/CitizenCue Aug 07 '22
The point of an asterisk isn’t that any team had an advantage. The point is that conditions from that year were so unique that it makes that year incomparable to other years.
Like, if one year there was a global shortage of basketballs and the league played an entire season with a tennis ball instead, it would surely get an asterisk, even though it affected everyone equally.
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u/joker7117 Aug 07 '22
People said the same thing about the shortened season due to CBA negotiations that the spurs won. To me there is no asterisk on either. All teams have a fair chance to win a title regular season, shortened season, bubble none of that matters. What matters is at the end there is one standing and give them their props.
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Aug 07 '22
Not quite the same. In 99 everyone started the season late, at the same time. There was no pause in the middle of the season. There were fans and true homecourt. The 2012 season was also shortened due to a lockout?
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u/TheOneWhosCensored Aug 08 '22
This is the key people don’t get. The rules and implementation of the shorten season was similar to every other, except the number of games. The same isn’t true for the bubble year. You had teams stop play and resume later, uneven number of games pre-bubble.
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u/odinlubumeta Aug 07 '22
There are no asterisks in sports. Sports is about dealing with the challenges set before you and overcoming them. Anyone that tries to put asterisks are people that want to discredit a team or player achievement. The bubbles championship gets the asterisks so often because it’s Lebron (so MJ fans fear Lebron’s goat argument), Lakers ((because half the fan base hates that they keep finding ways to win. Half the arguments are fans upset they didn’t build through the draft. As if being lucky there counts more. Likely because 90% of the league can only count on that way of building).
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u/agoddamnlegend Aug 07 '22
Fucking exactly. An asterisk implies somebody had an u fair advantage. The reality is that was the most fair basketball tournament in NBA history.
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u/softnmushy Aug 08 '22
I totally disagree.
Context matters in sports just like everything else. Sports are a completely artificial exercise that only have value because we give them value.
If I say that KDs championships are less impressive than Giannis’, it’s a completely valid opinion. You can disagree (you’d be wrong). But it’s silly to say that every championship is equal and nobody can value them differently.
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u/odinlubumeta Aug 08 '22
So if MJ won all his titles but every finals the other teams superstars all got injured you would say MJ isn’t even close to the goat. But it isn’t up to MJ to keep the other team healthy. Is one championship harder to win, sure. But the championship isn’t lessened. If you want to say KDs is not as good as Giannis that’s your opinion. Do the Warriors have to turn down players? In fact having three HOF players means Curry can’t be a top ten to you. He definitely loses the two KD championships. And his others are way lessened. For Curry to really be a great they need to trade Klay and Draymond for just good players. At least for your argument to stay consistent. It’s dumb. Whenever have you said that teams or players have to reject other good players. By your argument Dirk is the goat or Rasheed Wallace is. Every other champion has multiple HOF players and thus don’t really count much. In fact MJ is definitely not the goat. He failed all 8 years with Pippen. And had way too good of a team once he won. Heck he was favored in like 5 of his 6 championships. They need a major asterisks.
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u/nts4906 Aug 08 '22
Asterisks are used to explain statistical outliers if there is a reason for the outlier. Steroid users get asterisks because steroids caused their stats to be higher than normal. The dome caused that year to be a statistical outlier and the dome is the reason so it gets an asterisk.
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u/odinlubumeta Aug 08 '22
But the way fans use it is to demote a team or players championship. If you listen to the way they call it, they act as if Lebron was handed an easy championship (when they argue against his goat status) or they talk about it as if the Lakers shouldn’t have that championship matter (if they are basically against the Lakers in general). I promise you if the Lakers made it to the finals against the Bucks and Giannis got injured a minute into the game, they would complain that Lebron never really earned two of his championships.
Again there aren’t asterisks in sports. If it’s a lock out season or bubble season or whatever, the team that won earned that championship. With steroids that is an unfair advantage. The nba asterisks are BS. Every team player with the same rules. Does playing in a neutral site needed to be foot noted?
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Aug 07 '22
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u/odinlubumeta Aug 07 '22
Disney in Orlando (not land which is in California). They had it there because it’s a large campus so the players weren’t stuck in day one hotel space the whole time. There are few places that could house 400+ players plus employees and not feel like they are on top of each other.
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u/erog84 Aug 07 '22
Yes asterisk… as the purest basketball we have seen in a long time. If Lebron didn’t win, people would claim he didn’t have the mental fortitude to last in a no nonsense environment. But since he won, all the haters are claiming it’s a Mickey ring.
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u/Fallofmen10 Aug 07 '22
Yah I find it weird how fans discount almost every players words coming out of the bubble. So many of them said how fucking hard if a grind it was mentally. Now salty fans just ignore that fact and act like it was a 2 week vacation instead of 3+ months locked away from family
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u/teloite Aug 07 '22
I think it has more to do with him saying he won the hardest championship in league history. Clearly most people don’t agree with that and rubbed folks the wrong way, also they got a rest( entire league) so many feel that interruption had the biggest effect on how the season ended. Like the bucks were the best team in the east and they clearly weren’t the same once the bubble started and said for other top teams. I thought the play was awful and sloppy and just wished they canceled the season but money talks so that didn’t happen…
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Aug 07 '22
It’s more about the mental fortitude to stay locked up for months just focused on hooping when they say it’s the hardest and I can see where that opinion comes from
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Aug 07 '22
Lakers were the best team in the league right at the league shutdown (coming off significant wins back to back against the Clippers and Bucks who were the other top 3 teams) the best team absolutely won the championship, bubble or not imo.
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u/Wazflame Aug 08 '22
That weekend was awesome, you could tell LeBron was ramping it up on both ends at that time of year too
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u/moe1984 Aug 10 '22
the best team won the title because they won some games in march? okay....
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Aug 10 '22
They were the best team all year long. From the beginning, to the shutdown in March, and in the bubble.
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u/Synchestra Aug 07 '22
I totally agree with you. It was some of the purest bball possible with no advantages for a team like normal, and yet the Lakers get mocked for it because LeBron got ring number 4 while they missed having the homeco7rt advantage they earned. It was more of a feat than a regular season.
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Aug 08 '22
More of a fear than a regular season?? LMAO they had a nearly 4 month break, while benefiting everyone it definitely helps out the veteran players even more. Also the Lakers were pretty much one of the only teams truly competing at the end of the day. Not to take away from them but when you don’t play in front of any fans and your toughest competition is an injury ridden 5th seed Miami, its definitely not more impressive than a regular season
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u/Synchestra Aug 08 '22
Sorry but I disagree. The Bucks could've won as the number 1 seed in the east and they didn't. The Lakers beat everyone in front of them just as every other champ has. They earned their one seed prior to the break. They were 57-0 when leading after the 3rd quarter in the regular season. They deserved their chip. That same Miami team almost made the finals this year, and was knocked out by the championship winning bucks the year after the bubble.
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u/babelove2 Aug 07 '22
I feel like the bubble shouldn’t have an asterisk in terms of winning and stuff but the stats like shooting percentages of players etc should be taken with a grain of salt because home court advantage and fans do impact the game so much. like all these guys should be able to shoot free throws in an empty gym but some can’t do it infront if thousands.
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u/kasmic_89 Aug 07 '22
The NBA playoffs free throw % each year.
2019 .784
2020 .788
2021 .786
2022 .785
So 0.2% to 0.4% better at free throws in the bubble.
Not really a significant difference.
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u/babelove2 Aug 07 '22
yeah I see what you mean. I don’t think it’s necessarily that different but I do think some people over preformed not so much the league as a whole but certain individual players if that makes sense
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u/Global-Pudding-9393 Aug 08 '22
Obviously but others underperformed. Just like any 20 game snippet in nba history
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u/MonomonTheTeacher Aug 07 '22
Not sure exactly when “the asterisk” became a popular talking point, but it really doesn’t make sense to me for any season or playoffs. Why does knowing the history and context of how a championship team did it make that championship worth less? If you’re a basketball fan, enjoy the storylines. The promise that every year will unfold differently is part of why we watch. If you’re arguing that a team only won because they were best able to take advantage of that year’s unique circumstances… you’re pretty much always right, that’s more or less the whole point of organized sports.
Might be controversial, but I think if all you see in a particular year’s storyline is a reason to discredit the winners, you’re just a hater.
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Aug 07 '22
While I understand all the points regarding why the 2020 season requires an asterisk, whether it holds positive or negative connotations, the fact is that in my eyes it may be one of the least asterisk-worthy seasons out there.
I say this because 2020 was a societally calamitous year. Virtually every conversation involving events of 2020 will include discussion of pandemic provisions, doubly so for a major sporting event. There is no avoiding discussion of the pandemic and what we needed to do to put on an event like this when discussion of that season and those playoffs happens.
This isn't some bit of a sport's esotera - like baseball going from 154 to 162 games the year Maris got to 61 homers in baseball.
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u/Brondeux Aug 07 '22
People only want to put an asterisk because they want to discredit lebron every chance they have. When it really comes down to it the bubble was way more about ball than anything. No fans or distractions just playing basketball. Thats why random players came crazy, remember jamal murray??
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Aug 08 '22
A lot of them besides Lebron also straight up didn’t truly care or compete. Not that they didn’t earn it, but it’s a lot less likely the Lakers would have won the chip if the season played out normally
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u/BigFatM8 Aug 08 '22
That's their fault, then. If LeBron had lost in the bubble, everyone would've said that LeBron doesn't have that Killer instinct and that MJ and Kobe would've done everything to win even if it was a bubble.
Also Lakers were 1st seed in the west before the bubble, 57-0 record if they started the 4th with a lead, 17-2 start to the season. There was nobody beating them that year.
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u/moresleepy1 Aug 08 '22
tell me more how the number one seed was less likely to win. Who was gonna beat them?
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u/Global-Pudding-9393 Aug 08 '22
I mean this isn’t based on any facts.
If anything the lakers lost the home court advantage they worked all year for.
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u/DylanCarlson3 Aug 08 '22
it’s a lot less likely the Lakers would have won the chip if the season played out normally
You're basing this on what? They lost their home court advantage and lost Avery Bradley, who was a starter for them that year, because he opted out of the bubble. They were objectively in a worse spot in August than in March.
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u/IAMONEGLOVE Aug 07 '22
If there was a team that got an unfair advantage that other teams weren’t afforded, then there should be an asterisk. But it was a level playing field and the team that won deserved it.
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Aug 07 '22
the following season was way way more unfair for certain teams than the bubble. short off-season, condensed schedule, the league basically making up covid rules on the fly (covid did not impact all teams equally), the raptors played home games 1,000 miles away in a foreign country, etc.
asterisks in general are dumb / mostly used to just piss off specific fans. but if a season is gonna be viewed as different or unfair, it is definitely 2021 more than 2020. the bubble was unique but fair.
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u/Fmeson Aug 08 '22
Asterisks are dumb, it's a sport. It's not a sterile, mathematically optimized method to uniformly measure basketball skill. Every year is different. Every year features injuries. Every year features unlucky breaks.
The bubble might be different than every other year, but it was still basketball played on an even playing field.
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u/datcheezeburger1 Aug 07 '22
I think if Lebron didn’t come out on top of the bubble it wouldn’t be nearly as controversial. It’s just an easy way to discredit him without having to back it up with empirical evidence imo
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Aug 07 '22
I think it deserves an asterisk. Not because it's an illegitimate or unfair championship, but because it was played under completely different circumstances than any other championship. I see people making comparisons to lockout shortened seasons, but the bubble was wildly different than just a shorter regular season. No fans, some players not being able to see their families for weeks in end, neutral playing field, it all makes the bubble way different than any other championship run. So it's hard for me to see it the same as any other championship.
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u/Hi_Im_Ouiji Aug 07 '22
I’m just curious if lakers/AD health would have been fine without the pause thanks to COVID
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