I know the title of this post is meshugge but I have to say something about Gehinnom and why I am terrified of it. I was told by rabbis I know that the founders of other religions (Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Confucius, Joseph Smith, Zoroaster) are being tormented there. I was also told by frum peers that all sinners including righteous gentiles who worshiped other gods would also go or literally cease to exist

I found out I wasn’t halachically Jewish but for some reason gehinnom makes me feel like I need to become Chassidish again. I imagine Hashem with a scale viewing my middos, waiting before I am tried before yeshiva shel maala and I fear having more bad than good and getting thrown into geninnom because I either appropriated being a Jew, didn’t convert after knowing it is the truth, or became another religion, or married someone wrong.

I once asked a frummie and then AI (forgive me) on what happened to saint francis, a dude who gave his life to charity chastity, and helping others and his god to the point where he injured himself

They said either gehinnom, gilgul, or Hashem just obliterated him

I’m scared

Edit: I’m not a catholic. I just used Saint Francis as a lot of people know who he is and most people don’t see him as a “bad dude,” and he is a Gadol of another religion, who even other religions say “yeah he’s pretty damn good.” I was also told that people who deny things in Torah, like Reform Jews, Albert Einstein, Muslims, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Conservative Jews, Female Rabbis, and Religion Scholars were doomed as well

Has anyone heard of someone having their orthodox conversion annulled for no longer keeping Shabbat?

I've heard this term being used in the context of ex-Mormonism. I imagine most heavily religious people have made substantial time investments and sacrifices toward their religious pursuits, although I can only speak for Jews: An obedient orthodox Jewish adult will have spent countless hours studying Torah, will have abstained from pre-marital relationships, and, with the exception of "Modern Orthodox Jews"/non haredim, will have sacrificed most possible career paths for measly wages, welfare dependence and/or full-time Torah learning. Leaving could be perceived by oneself as going from a high madrega (level) that took years to achieve, to starting at square one.

For those who have left: was a sunk-cost fallacy an obstacle that held you back? Do you believe this is currently holding others back?

For the past 3 months I have been returning to God. Not the God we were raised to believe in, who cared about all the little things we did at every moment, but the concept of God as the divinity that gives existence to the human condition and to reality as we know it. The indescribable, unknowable force that embeds itself in our consciousness and in everything we perceive.

I’ve been doing it through the lens of Jewish faith, at my own pace and discretion. It came about unexpectedly, since I became an agnostic about 15 years ago (I’m 43 now). It was sparked by inspiring stories about Rebbe Nachman and some of his principles that friends shared with me, even non-religious friends. It started because I’m so far past any feelings of guilt or shame, or needing to be right about things, that I’m comfortable defining what I want to practice and believe on my own terms.

To be clear, for as long as I’ve been agnostic (and for a while before that, atheist), I was still connected to the community. My wife remained “religious” (although daily modern). My kids go to Jewish school. We kept some form of Shabbat: we ate Shabbat meals, put away our devices and TVs, and didn’t drive. But we all turned on lights (not my wife), and I would often use my phone or do work after the kids went to bed. My family eats dairy out, but on my own time I kept no kosher at all (pork and shellfish were fair game, and my favorites).

I haven’t had any non-kosher meat or shellfish in almost 3 months. I still like it, but after a long time I felt like I was hiding things from my kids, and that got old. I also started to redefine what I wanted to connect with in spiritual practice through the lens of Judaism, and I decided that for now I can give it up.

I started to think about spirituality through the lens of personal sacrifice, in addition to the connection to the Higher Force beyond consciousness and unity, which I began connecting with a few years back outside the context of Judaism, closer to Buddhism.

Recently I’ve been regaining interest in Jewish texts and ideas and trying to understand them through a new lens with new interpretations. When I was reading Parshat Bereshit a few weeks back, I began to re-read the creation story as the dawn of human consciousness. I thought of Gan Eden as the pure spiritual place of “just being,” without needing to work or worry. The ultimate “present moment.” I thought of the snake as the intrusive thoughts that pull us out of this place.

I started to think about “The World to Come” as the future version of myself. Perhaps even the moment of death and the ultimate coming to terms with my existence and how I lived my life. The absence of regret and fear.

I reached out to the Rabbi of my shul and hope to start learning Rebbe Nachman with him (I haven’t learned any Jewish texts in many, many years). I’ve toyed with the idea of putting on tefillin and saying Shema. I’m not quite there yet, and I haven’t worn tefillin for most of my adult life.

Through these ideas I’ve started to ponder what it might mean to “love God” vs. “fear God” and to build a practice around that love. But I’ve also wondered if some people aren’t capable of existing in that space, and if maybe, for some, fearing God is a necessary form of practice and connection (unfortunately). It’s made me think that the Torah stories relating to commandments and fear are human expressions of this need in some individuals, and thus part of “God,” since God is in fact the whole of human consciousness and experience.

Anyway, I share all this not to preach, but to offer a framework that is working for me in this season of life that may resonate with some of you or point to possibilities.

I'm not sure if there's a better term to use, but I'm referring to those who mentally don't subscribe to the religion, but are outwardly still religious, for reasons such as fitting in with a community, maintaining family cohesion, etc.

I'm really curious to hear from anyone whom this applies to, or from anyone who knows those to whom it does. If this applies to you, would you be comfortable sharing why? Have you told anyone else? How many other "closeted OTD people" do you suspect there are out there?

Furthermore, is there any advice you would give to a religious person looking to get married, but who nonetheless has some doubts about religion (but not necessarily in the closeted category)? How could someone prevent themselves from ending up stuck in such a situation?

Just a rant/ wondering if others have felt this and what they did.

I engage with all types of people. I grew up in New York City, attending yeshiva but also day camps with kids from all around the city with different backgrounds, which I believe already gave me a predisposed open mindedness about non Jews and or Jewish people who didn’t fit the Jewish mold exactly like me.

I went to college where I had mostly Jewish friends because there was a large community , but also engaged with people in my classes and have long lasting non Jewish friends.

I’m in the “modern orthodox” community socially and by association because it’s who I grew up with and know me the best, but lately I’ve been so tired and disillusioned by everyone’s willfulness to only engage with Jewish people and cultural surroundings, despite being living a relatively “secular” life.

The way people casually refer to queer, neurodivergent people, and or minorities like they are other species is so mind bogglingly frustrating to me. The lack of curiosity and choice to instead judge individuals so callously and casually due fear of unfamiliarity. I am sad for these people. I view them as socially disadvantaged. But I am so furious that it is this way, and it feels like as long as Jews in America are as privileged in society it will remain this way.

I had a friend’s manosphere pilled brother tell me that gay marriage should be outlawed for some bullshit reason that was really “it make me feel icky”

he then claimed “gay people didn’t have it that bad before it became legal.” History doesn’t matter when you don’t know it. When you’re not the least bit curious to look into your biases and learn real facts. When you’ve never interacted with someone of the minority you so quiver at the thought of engaging with at all because it might be contagious.

This is a guy who has everything absolutely handed to him, brags about barely attending classes in high school and college, and will inherit his father’s business and be a millionaire. He will never have to step into the shoes of anyone without his level of privilege or learn the poison of thinking and believing this way and it pains me.

I feel like so much of the community, at least in New York, forgot principals we were taught were core values of Judaism, which are just the core values of life, really? Be kind? Dont assume the worst of people you know nothing about? Don’t make fun of people?

As a non religious, agnostic person who also happens to be liberal, it pains me when I see people who use Judaism and its current luxuries as an excuse to have this mindset. People who do not even practice to the full extent to which they claim to align with but allow their culture and community to be the reason for ignorance, hatred, classism, and extreme insularity. It makes me full of hatred for the religion. It feels like there’s truly an insidious supremacy.

I came across the following quote from Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch:

"It was not 'Orthodox' Jews who introduced the word 'orthodox' into Jewish discussion. It was the modern 'progressive' Jews who first applied the name to 'old,' 'backward' Jews as a derogatory term. This name was... resented by 'old' Jews. And rightfully so."

Is this true?

If so, then how did it end up becoming the accepted term?

I'm frustrated that I was born Jewish. In particular, I'm terrified about antisemitism. Like, scared shitless about it.

I honestly feel like the best way I can describe being Jewish is that it is a "curse". I never signed up to be Jewish, but now need to deal with all the risks associated with that identity. To be frank, and I know it's not fair, but I hold resentment towards my ancestors for passing this down. I get that it was important to them, but THEIR desires shouldn't be MY OBLIGATION to maintain.

As I see it, antisemitism is never going away. It just seems like every generation, it just cycles through the same crap over and over again. No amount of proof will ever convince the mass public that some Jews can just be plain, innocent people. People don't listen, learn, or evolve. Same shit, different mask. It's been this way for thousands of years (with occasional breaths of fresh air), and no reason to expect it to change. Look at the current direction.

Frankly, none of this feels worth it to me. Who thought this would be a good idea to pass down?!

Yes, yes, I understand not cowering to bigots... but, seriously, man... I didn't need this.

That's issue number one.

Issue number two is this: My Conservative Judaism childhood was full of my Dad fighting with my brother over his dating non-Jewish women. My brother tried to reason with my Dad (we all did!) that love is more important than strict religious dogma, to absolutely no avail. My Dad's a great person, but he could just never break through and "get it".

Then, I married a wonderful non-Jewish woman who actually wants to preserve the holidays and all and study the religion, but just personally doesn't want to convert for very understandable reasons. My Dad couldn't accept that either and didn't attend our wedding. On the flip-side, all of our in-laws accepted us for being Jewish.

So, it's kind of hard to not hold a resentment towards Judaism specifically when the other side welcomed us with open arms but our side was being overly obtuse and, yes, legalistic. This, despite the fact that my wife repeatedly spoke about resonating with many aspects to the Jewish religion. So, what's the hold up?

Then there's Hebrew school. I was sent to Hebrew school for 2 hours a day, three times a week after school, when the sun would go down. I was forced to read prayers I didn't understand over and over again. What was the point? It feels like it was used more to prod someone's own ego and need for control and structure than actually teach me something. I'm very spiritual, and I just feel like Judaism made a complete mockery out of it. It took me awhile to separate the baby from the bathwater.

I'm angry. I'm angry that this was passed down to me. I'm angry that people just "assumed" because it was important to them, that it should be my issue to carry. I would just convert if it mattered, but I know antisemites will never accept that. So, now I'm stuck with something that I didn't choose and have to deal with the risks. For f*ck's sake!

I'm curious: how do people here process antisemitism and this issue? What do you make out of how I'm processing my feelings? It just feels so suffocating to me, like I can't run away or control an issue.

**

Important note: Apologies if I crossed a line or said something I don't feel in my heart is actually right. I respect anyone who wants to follow Judaism, and I know it's not Jews' responsibility to answer to the endless demands of bigots. I'm praying for a world where there is no more hate, and we can love one another.

It hit me this week I never did anything Halloween-related in my life, I guess purim was as close as it got lol (Guy mid 20s)

Anyone want to figure something out? I'm totally down to form a group (ideally around my age) if anyone else wants to leave the house and touch grass.

Maybe we do a game night or something, maybe hang out at a bar? Open to sugestions!

I was a top student before kiruv and a bunch of family tragedies basically let myself turn myself Haredi, and eventually “depressed” and lazy. Now in my final years of high school. I look at this 3.3 GPA and am watching as every college I had ever toured would reject me if not for a miracle.

I am so absolutely motivated still and disappointed in myself that I have resorted doing extremely heavy workouts, studying, and academic improvement. I literally yell at myself in Yiddish if I hit the snooze on the alarm and legitimately want to just go hard. I have no hate for myself, I just literally love myself so much that I am willing to put myself through physical hell that I can get to my maximum potential and regain that child prodigy I once was.

Is this a terrible mentality akin to the guilt that frumkeit gives or is it ok?

Hopefully this is ok to share, but it is I, Shalom from Freidom Fighter and the Beyond Belief podcast. I'm running an online workshop next week where I talk about religious trauma and how hypnosis has helped both myself and my clients heal from it. As part of the event there will also be a group hypnosis/guided meditation component and a chance to ask questions.

I'm structuring it as a pay what you can so it's as accessible as possible, and it will be basically virtual and anonymous so anyone can join.

More info here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/2003789905548

If you are ex-satmar or know anyone who is ex-satmar, please come check out our new Ex-Satmar Subreddit and Discord server!

• Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exsatmar/
• Discord: https://discord.gg/dwmRpxkwKq

And if you're not Ex-Satmar, come join the discussion anyway to help build momentum, thank you!

I grew up ortho, me and my wife and young children are all thankfully cult-free.

We initially opted to near family so that our kids can still have a relationship with their grandparents and extended family.

My children are quite young, but I have been thinking of late if I should be moving. My relationship with my family is not the same as it was a bunch of years ago – while its ostensibly and superficially nice – they ultimately believe in this whole lifestyle that is so immensely important and central to their lives – and I think it is literally foolish and fairly evil – it is not a recipe for harmony even with the best intent and effort - especially when they have other children where they can have this incredible “nachas” from etc. I have seen as I have “deconstructed” more and my personal family has grown – there has been a noticeable shift from my extended family to my own family.

But is moving the answer? I would send to public school, my child in daycare is already in this nice diverse environment and has fairly limited ortho exposure.

On one hand why surround myself with this community which I fundamentally disagree with, and who holds so much sway here? Although alternatively, why is this place theirs? There are a great many diverse folks here and who can accurately prognosticate the future? All areas will have pros and cons and we love our home and the area directly around us has not turned yet.

The question is does moving help this at all – I have these like fantasies about moving down to the Carolinas or something and then it turns out that they are in this predominantly right-wing religious Christian environment and I would have gone through all this effort to choose a new set of problems and different identify issues.

Any wise insight?

I’m a woman in a community on the pretty modern end of the modern orthodox world, despite being half in half out. When I engage in solely sexual activities, aka not necessarily within a romantic dynamic, despite my own desire to engage being equal to a male partner’s, I still often feel a deep disgust and shame with myself afterwards. Or like I’ve been used. Have any other women experienced this? Is this a personal identity factor like demisexuality? Or simply repression?

I'm not trying to be an asshole but seriously why is that the look? The dads' hold on the groom makes it look like holding up a prisoner. The groom doesn't look happy. Is there symbolism in this? Why can't the three men walk together in a normal fashion, or the chosson link his arms in the dads vs the dads gripping the groom?

We're all aware of the way that mainstream Chareidi media silences and erases the female half of the population.

Way back in 2016, I thought of a way to combat this shameful trend: Elect a woman as POTUS. "If Hillary wins," I asked myself, "How can the frummies not publish photos of the POTUS for her entire term(s)?" I wondered similarly in 2024.

I'd love to hear the discussions that go on in the "situation rooms" of these magazines and papers. I want to know what their plans are if a woman ever becomes the POTUS.

We've been going to our local Chabad for over a year now and the kids (ages 5-13) still won't say hello to us and barely respond when we try to interact with them. Is this typical, or no? We're Jewish but not Orthodox, but we do help out at the center voluntarily.

You know the deal by now. Feel free to discuss your Shabbat plans or whatever else.

This would be comical if it weren't actually so shockingly harmful. I've told you guys about that Facebook group I'm in for frum women. This poor lady has STAGE 4 CANCER and is posting asking if anyone knows of a lubavitch rov who will give her a heter to use a condom because she can't risk getting pregnant. I swear these teachings are genuinely psychologically and physically harmful. It's bad enough you have to ask some rando for permission to use birth control but how fucked up in the brain are these cults followers that in a life and death situation they feel like they still need to ask permission and can't make a decision for themselves. These cults literally take away any sense of agency you have over everything. And here, to use a fucking condom when you're battling stage 4 cancer. Because chasv wasting seed. I can't!

I wanted to share a particularly moving episode from my podcast, with Yoily, a closeted ex-hasidic man who is sharing his experience while still living as religious in the Orthodox community in NY.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Kj6Bpg3eGgswi7nhFckJt?si=ocmslwVYQvylOSG6Cf1ILA