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u/sunkencore Jun 10 '22
You didn’t meet anyone you liked? Why no positive characterisations at all?
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Jun 10 '22
This is specifically a *rant* about the problems. To expect a comprehensive commentary of indian devs is misplaced. He's a developer, not a politician. He doesn't have to play both sides.
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u/BhupeshV Jun 10 '22
Out of 100 discussions happening on this sub 98 belongs to compensation/notice period/ X better than Y. It's becoming a hiring forum. Rarely anyone asks a well defined dev challenge in here.
Hey OP, sub mod here
Sub posts reflect what the new gen folks care about nowadays, I agree with on you on some part, most people folks care about jobs because that's how our society is settled in right now. People who are at senior levels don't necessarily engage in meaningful discussion online, If you think this should change, then create discussions you want to see in the community.
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u/1StraightFact Jun 10 '22
Hey, thanks. While more dev related topics are nice, but this sub has also created a safe place where employees can be aware of their or others exploitation. If it weren't for this sub, I didn't even know college had tiers lol.
Being unaware is one of the things companies like to exploit.
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u/raddiwala Jun 10 '22
Dev challenges need not be geo locked. React in US is used the same as India. We dont need a r/jsindia or r/javaindia.
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u/BhupeshV Jun 10 '22
Totally agreed, i was replying to OPs frustration about the type of posts they see in the sub.
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u/theRishu Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
We are gen Z. We dont care about your shits.
If people can get better paying job while at time before they join your company it means you pay less. Stop faking dude.
Bet you cant even share salary structure of your company.
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u/1StraightFact Jun 10 '22
Rightly said, older spineless gens were the ones who never spoke their mind and got fucked by all sides. Kuch bhi fek ke maro seh lenge types. These retarded older people also expect newer ones to bendover to their maliks.
I scratch companies back and hope they will do the same, doesn't work. I'm not gen z though.
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u/sangramz Jun 10 '22
I'm a 90's Kid(now uncle) but we are on same line lol. Some of us earning a lot from offshore companies via freelance or individual consulting. And I refuse to give much attention to "Tier 1 college CTO series A funded start up" and meh. They are heavily criticized by the seniors as well.
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u/raddiwala Jun 10 '22
I’d like to know more about your hiring process.
You get Leetcode chads because in interviews its all DP and Graph questions. How else is one supposed to solve them?
Do you provide feedback to candidates when you reject them? Decline them decently?
Do you respond to all the applicants?
The existing practices are shitty yes but if you’ve identified them I’d like to really know how you’ve thought about solving them.
If you are in it for money
What the fuck else would I be in for. I’ve got myself to feed and people to take care for. This is my work not my life. If someone is willing to pay me more I will go. Money is important. I dont have the privilege to work for pleasure or my passion. Passion doesn’t feed me.
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u/BearRevolutionary388 Jun 10 '22
I was gonna write this all, but you beat me to it. :) why does OP think anyone is not in for the money?!!
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u/huk_n_luk Jun 10 '22
There is nothing wrong with having grinding Leet code, the only ask was to have a sense of applying it to a real world problem.
We have a strict policy of closing a candidate in 48 hours and yes we respond to every candidate with relevant feedback by the dev who has reviewed the profile.
In terms of solutions:
A mid/senior dev is present with HR in all rounds except salary discussion.
Salary discussion round is either with me or some other leadership guy.
Our salary bands are told upfront to the candidates at the end of first round.
Sure you are in it for money but I have two questions here:
Why continue interviewing if you do not fit the salary band.
If you get an offer beyond salary band, just let us know instead of taking up the offer and rejecting it on joining date.
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Jun 10 '22
If you get an offer beyond salary band, just let us know instead of taking up the offer and rejecting it on joining date.
The thing is, similar to what happened at coinbase, there are cases where companies have rescinded the job offers a day before the joining date, so people are keeping a second job offer open until they start their first job to minimize the risk.
You seem like one of those devs with a boomer mindset. Companies need to be held to a standard as well, which is not being done right now.
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u/raddiwala Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
I dont know how long you’ve been away from the application and interview process but majority of FAANG and good paying companies only ask DSA. SO students only focus on these questions. They do not spend and cannot spend time on honing their developer skills. Facebook sends materials to prepare for DSAe questions. What do you think happens then? There is so much DSA and sys design to cover its illogical.
Thank you for having a good policy like this.
Salary bands being told upfront is good.
I dont interview if the salary band doesnt fit me. If companies dont disclose it people find the salary from AmbitionBox or Glassdoor and check. If it matches people continue interviewing. If they ultimately end up disappointed, they wont join. Simple.
Some simply offer shop. Its a capitalist world and everyone is out there for themselves. Can’t really fault people. Companies have been ruthless with people. Just read the tales of how shitty HR or their managers behave. That erodes any trust. Even if you are waaaay better than them, it takes time for devs to build that trust. They will treat every company with suspicion.
99% of Indian companies have shitty policies and people behave accordingly. Your company might be an outlier but not easy to change the perception of any candidate.
These issues in my opinion are not Indian dev specific but some people being shitty at communication and respecting others and their time. Might not have learnt how to communicate or negotiate and hence they pull off shit like this.
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u/WonderfulPlay Jun 10 '22
I’m sorry that nobody is joining your shitty startup. Pls cry somewhere else.
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u/farhfark Jun 10 '22
Stop complaining
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Jun 11 '22 edited Jun 11 '22
I have the urge to say, "Bring me solutions, don't bring me problems" to OP.
The number of times I've heard that line from out-of-touch, arrogant C-suite execs like this clown is too high.
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u/raddiwala Jun 10 '22
Workplace shamers
If I’m dissatisfied with something I’m not allowed to leave? What kind of asnine logic is this?
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u/beingsmo Jun 10 '22
Workplace shamers?
Some workplaces deserves to be named and shamed and by the looks of it , your startup is one such place too.
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u/asking_for_a_friend0 Jun 10 '22
I dunno but there needs to be "A Tale of Indian HR" too. If we have a shitty dev attitude problem that's because how devs are prepared to fit in this shitty market.
You're coming from a decently funded startup, with its reputation at risk, so you do hire with MNC standards. But outside of your space, India is full of shitty HR practices and abuse beyond your imagination.
The behaviour you mentioned in your post is a DIRECT result of what the market demands and how abusively it treats devs; driving them desperate driving them nuts.
And I absolutely disagree with your "complain" point, I am so sorry but its typical of Indian execs/hr/senior to not take any sort of complaint at all and shrug off all criticism with aggressive retaliation. Can't agree with that point in a lifetime. That's culture getting to you, sorry again.
I do appreciate you post but I also thing this sub is a blessing to discuss dev issues and I disagree about "hiring forum" part too. Where should they go, Quora or what?
Again, I emphasize what you are saying is not wrong and I am not questioning your claims but its much more than what you are seeing and that's because you're working at a fine ass company. Try a shitty small scale tech company or worse start up in India, see what execs demand from innocent.
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u/seekster009 Jun 10 '22
Basically it's like a loop, shitty work culture in many companies resulting in shitty attitude devs.India needs strict work reforms or chaos in the Market is just a ticking bomb.
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u/hunterfrombloodborne Jun 10 '22
Umm... meaning killing the whole outsourcing industry. Not gonna happen...
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u/Randaum Jun 10 '22
Oh the number of times I've heard shitty HRs threaten to drop my candidature when I negotiated..
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u/daveSavesAgain Jun 10 '22
I am pretty sure job descriptions at OP’s company has 12 - 14 technologies, and if a candidate asks why, this top tier shite will call them arrogant.
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u/safafaf122_throwaqy Jun 10 '22
Love how this CTO is humblebragging , while also putting down all other devs cuz they do not fit his idea of perfect slave labor.
Bhai IIT karke python seekh ke apne ko T-90 tank mat samjho , aadha story code karoge complexity wala to tum bhi din bhar stackoverflow ka gannd hi chaatoge ~ Someone please translate, not good in english
obligatory , get off your high horse.
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u/safafaf122_throwaqy Jun 10 '22
Follow Up : I interviewed for a well funded Supply chain startup that will probably will fail in 5 years, i had 3 rounds with barraiser (Some third party company that interviews)
3 rounds of LC medium problems with the employees, 1 round with the director and then the HR took my salary slips, for a HR round, asked my expectations, i asked for 40% more that what i earn. The Company that pays 60-80 L ( According to blind) TC to guys with 6 YOE , shat her pants when i asked for 32 Fixed.
i was tasked with creation of the entire testing framework, testing culture for the org, hiring efforts , and more. I have 10 YOE
Randomly next day, they said the CTO wants to talk to me. a call was set
the CTO Call was randomly cancelled and none of the fucking marks would talk to me.
so yes, pardon me if i dont like your rants. its gonna be so much fun working with you as the boss.
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u/MKiGT Jun 10 '22
Damn boy… This is all a game of supply and demand. For a 10 YoE they are Lo balling the numbers AF.
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u/raddiwala Jun 10 '22
Honestly yes. Its his company but Devs are employees. They get paid for work and they leave. Whats wrong in that?
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u/the_itchy_beard Jun 10 '22
office is not letting me come at 12 pm
I just now attended my friends wedding function and came home. It is 2:30 PM, now I am going to login to work.
If there is no flexibility in timings, the stupid company can fuck off. This is 2022. We are not slaves to corporations.
compensation/notice period/ X better than Y
Yes we work for money. Why the hell do you think the employee cares about your company's success? Is he the one becoming a billionaire if the company succeeds?
If you don't like us, you can go hire Americans. Oh wait!! they are even more demanding, and will ask you to fuck off right on your face.
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u/Random_human888 Jun 10 '22
What an energy boost on friday🤪Nothing more peaceful than seeing a tier 1 college Series A funded startup seeeteeeooo ranting🕊☮️
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u/asking_for_a_friend0 Jun 10 '22
Trust is a two street. Funny thing about founders is they will take out time from their schedule to write a thread about what all is wrong about world or people in general but will put a lot of organisational issues by same people under the rug.
LMFAO. Is that you? Preach (?)
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u/DateOk4963 Jun 10 '22
Oh please. What a privileged high-horsing cunt.
Have the balls to mention your company. We’ll tell you what’s wrong with your company.
Shove that tier-1 tag up your arse
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Jun 10 '22
It's a fintech. Giving bad loans and writing them off as NPAs is their contribution to the society. lol
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u/Amazing_Theory622 Jun 10 '22
Op was expecting accolades and bravado....got reality check from other side instead
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u/gimme_pineapple Jun 10 '22
I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I think junior devs should read this to better understand the other side, but here are my thoughts:
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This subreddit is specific to India, so you have to understand that the geographical context will cause the discussions to be focused around Indian job. If I wanted to discuss dev challenges/problems, why would I post it on an India-specific forum instead of some other region-agnostic forum where I could get responses from across the world?
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The attitude problem with junior devs is real. In fact, I would say I had an attitude problem too when I was younger. The best solution IMO is having a humble and friendly senior team. When I saw the way the senior devs behaved despite being extremely talented, I corrected myself.
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When you are hiring someone, why not assume that the other party is in it for the money?
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Why do you have a problem with workplace shaming? The average employee in India is treated very poorly, because the employers hold all the leverage. Software devs are among the first employees who have some leverage and they use it to get the best deal for themselves. In your own words, "World is hard, learn the ways to deal with it". Companies are allowing the devs to work at their own times and provide them with loads of benefits. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They want to attract high-quality developers. If you want them for your own company, you need to step up. Listen to the people.
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It is mind-boggling that you think a 90 day notice period is justified. It is just a manipulative tactic used by companies to make it harder for their employees to switch. Signing a contract does not make it okay, and the employee is totally justified in complaining. Write it off as a first-world problem if you want, but know that you will loose talent because high-quality devs know that they have better options.
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You mentioned that your hiring team is frustrated with the the unethical behaviour of the engineers. This goes both ways. Understand that your company is a part of an industry, and the companies in the industry are as guilty of unethical behaviour as the employees are. For example, I think a 90 day notice period is unethical. In such an environment, an employee who chooses to remain ethical will do so at his own detriment. With that said, I do think that there is a balance here, and both sides should endeavour to do much better.
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The name-calling you decided to use in this thread is just weird (The arrogant MF, Pseudo Alphas, etc.). It has a strong implication that you are better than everyone else. It comes across as very snobby, especially since you decided to post it in a forum of software engineers.
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u/Sean__2000 Jun 10 '22
It isn’t an attitude problem. Maybe gen z are more confident and assertive, which you take as attitude? We aren’t peasants starving for food, who will sell our souls and put up with workplace abuse.
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u/gimme_pineapple Jun 10 '22
I think the discussion is about attitude in the context of interactions between colleagues. There is no workplace abuse involved, just boring old discussions about everyday decisions (such as choosing architecture, choosing tech-stack, etc.). Ideally, these discussions should happen in good faith, in a polite manner, where all parties are open to the points put forward by others and the end goal of the points put forward by the people should be to come up with a solution to a problem. There's usually no need to be assertive in these situations. Many devs are often confidently incorrect, and they take a stand where none needs to be taken. There's a balance between confidence and arrogance, and arrogance is no good. It's just poor communication skills that come across as a poor attitude if you ask me.
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u/vivekz_991 Jun 10 '22
Hey dude,
I partly/conditionally agree to very littlestuff you said. And I hope other comments have given you a lesson.
And the last point :
Out of 100 discussions happening on this sub 98 belongs to compensation/notice period/ X better than Y. It's becoming a hiring forum. Rarely anyone asks a well defined dev challenge in here.
I think fresh grads & even everyone is alone & isolated and in need of good help from the right people at the right time. Everyone here is majoritily from Tier2-3 colleges where navigating interviews & offers & notice periods is a great deal for us. Some didn't have good seniors, some had shitty professors & some are in such low tier colleges that companies don't go for placements.
From what I can makeout from you, you are the top 0.01% crème de la crème in the universe. Please create your own sub for people like you, and people of your talent.
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u/tanish36 Jun 10 '22
If people are honest in hr round will they be able to clear the interview process i think not
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Jun 10 '22
these fucers just want sheeps to bend backwards, look my tier-1 graduated cto , no once is forcing you to hire someone right? you took the series A, probably even after knowing that the your product doesn't have the market, I am not saying that you are frustrated because of that, this is the ecosystem that you people have created, so live with it and if you are not able to find right candidates maybe introspect more rather than whining like a little cunt
maybe, just maybe stop being privileged and accept the world for the shit it is and btw if indeed there are more talented people in other streams then I hire from there why are u whining here?
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u/RevolutionaryStrider Jun 10 '22
Out of 100 discussions happening on this sub 98 belongs to compensation/notice period/ X better than Y. It's becoming a hiring forum. Rarely anyone asks a well defined dev challenge in here.
Is there an online discussion forum for Indian developers where they discuss computer science and tech rather than job-related stuff?
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u/sud004 Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Preach👏👏
I want op to answer for these
Trust is always a two way street
Also one more thing I want to add
Companies have 3 months of notice period as their policy but will only hire people who can join within 15 days
Also companies should have decency to provide feedback after taking up hours of our time
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u/asking_for_a_friend0 Jun 10 '22
Your point about "complain abt prev workplace" is brilliant, higher ups never like a pinch of "complaining brats" but want 🐑 as goes everywhere here from school to insti to shitty companies.
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u/1StraightFact Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
I agree with you on some interviewing parts like a, b and c, specially DSA punks who mindlessly do DSA all day and rotting them down like a textbook. They are not flexible and situation adaptation skills.
Now comes to disagreeing part, I think you need some reality check on that.
People don't become unethical, their companies make them. They join as a naive fresher and then realize the company have their way with them. They will naturally become more aware and take decisions that is better for them.
As you said, you will only find this awareness in junior and mid level people as they have realized that their own benefit is more important than company's. Unlike old people who will not say their mind instead of showing some spine. These spineless old boomers are the ones who find juniors whiny but in reality they are the one who are standing for workplace rights. Old people who will happily bend over just so they won't get scold by their boss is the main reason this industry has become more toxic.
Next 90 days notice is bad, even if you read contracts many people don't know that its a trap and some might've had some financial situation. Getting out of it is not a bad reason. Then there are cases where they were straight up lied to that 90 days NP is not bad or they can buyout by the very companies. Why wouldn't they have trust issues moving forward.
Guys telling you their flexible hours and need a canteen are also legit reasons. Every person has their requirements and reasons to switch.
Companies demand lots of things as principal demands from school kids and get ego hurt when called out. So what? going to threaten him big company against single employee just because they spoke their mind? There are many useless founders who give gyan all day on linkedin but can't take workplace criticism.
They cannot tell the money is the reason without HR living in 90s getting offended and doing emotional torture.
Do you mail every candidate about rejections? If not why expect others to show any courtesy to you? Ghosting is done by both.
In short: Employees don't act like this because they enjoy it, they need to because of trust issues they have developed(for right reasons) and company acting like entitled brats. The industry and previous employers are the reasons employees have generated this trust no one attitude. As an employee, you bend ones, you will be made to do so on daily basis, so better to be always satarkh.
(I'm typing on the phone, so there could be typos.)