Question

[u/No_Salad_6244]

There’s a question at the end, but here’s the context: I am a hobbyist, early intermediate student. I’ve been at it with a teacher for a few years. I’ve studied a mountain of short études, scales and warm-up techniques. I’ve worked on everything you’d expect from Sor, Carulli, Giuliani, Carcassi, Aguado, Sanz, “Anon”; and simple études or stripped down pieces from Bach and Tarrega.

But here’s the thing: I am getting really tired of it. Everything is starting to feel the same: one long slog through yet another Baroque piece. One more painful short etude that isn’t particularly pleasant, but offers the chance to learn a new technique or how to nail “that” note with “that” left hand fingering.

I finally started to review Lagrima on my own and to learn the notes in upper positions, by practicing scales from a Carulli method book.

Yesterday I walked into my lesson and started playing Lagrima. My teacher was surprised and said it is a little beyond where we are, but we can try it.

Here are the questions: am I wrong to feel this way about learning technique? Should I suck it up and slog through nothing but technique for the next couple of years, recognizing that each piece / étude still has its own beauty and I have a lot to learn?

Was I wrong to present to my teacher something I have worked on and am very much excited about and want to learn? (I really want to learn the technique and notes in the 7th and 9th positions that are new to me in Lagrima, in part because I think I can and because it’s a very beautiful piece and I know I can make it sing on my guitar.)

[u/Maeve-transalt]

If you're not working towards a degree or certification, you're at a point where you should be able to start working on pieces you enjoy.

Tell your teacher that you're aware that it might end up being frustrating, but that you're ok with that and want to try it.

If they push back against Lagrima, which should be totally doable if you've been playing a while, maybe start considering a another teacher that might be more aligned with what you want out of the experience

[u/jointjuggler → u/Maeve-transalt]

Op mentions he/she is a intermediate student, then Lagríma should definitely not be out of reach. 

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/Maeve-transalt]

I want to know more about the “box” and how it functions. I want to be competent. I want to learn new techniques and to improve. But…I am not working toward recitals or a degree. And I wonder if I will have time to improve so much that I can study concert-level pieces. I am unsure.

[u/Darthgorilla]

If you are paying your teacher, I feel you get a vote in the selection of pieces you are interested

I too, get bored of all to similar sor or aguado etudes and need to occasionally mix it up a bit to keep my interest up and look forward to practice

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/Darthgorilla]

I was really happy when. I received the Parkening version of Malagueña. It was a breath of fresh air in the middle of the études.

[u/Grump-Dog]

My opinion: If you've been at it for a few years as you mentioned, Lagrima should not be above your level. Here's a good comparison point - the Noad method includes Lagrima at the end of its first book, and that usually takes a reasonably diligent student 1 to 2 years to complete. If I'm remembering right, the book does say that Lagrima is a bit of a stretch at that point, but Noad at least clearly believes that it is an appropriate piece for a lower-intermediate player to be working on.

My other opinion: If you are not enjoying the music you are playing, there is something wrong. There are loads of fun, interesting and pedagogically valuable intermediate pieces to play. I'll refer to the Noad method again - both books, but especially the second, are jammed full of fun pieces to play. But most methods are pretty good about including interesting pieces. It's completely legit to focus a reasonable amount of your time on exercises and study excerpts for specific pedagogical purposes. But you should be spending at least half your time working through pieces that you like.

I don't know your teacher, and I hesitate to question his/her methods without knowing more, but imho your concerns are quite valid based on what you've written.

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/Grump-Dog]

Thanks for that. My teacher has mentioned this series of books and that they are very good.

[u/Roy_Salasar]

It sounds like you're starting to feel bored with the classical repertoire. If that's the case, I'd suggest thinking about what exactly you want to achieve by learning classical guitar. Note that "good technique" isn't a good goal in itself, because it won't necessarily make you the musician you'd like to become.

Think about the following: if not classical, then what kind of music would you like to play? Consider pop, flamenco, jazz, or any other genre that can be played on the instrument.

Another question: Are there any particular aspects of music that interest you? Are you interested in learning how to compose for guitar? Would you like to learn how to play by ear or improvise?

Once you've figured this out, you'll have a more or less concrete request for your teacher. It might turn out that they won't be able to help you achieve your goals, in which case it'll be time to find someone who can. That new teacher will provide you with exercises tailored to your needs (e.g., jazz studies), which could give you a second wind on your musical journey.

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/Roy_Salasar]

It isn't so much that I am bored. I am frustrated more than anything else. My goal was to learn more about the instrument and to understand it. I told my teacher this at the start and we have moved forward with that. My frustration now is that it's started to feel like an endless stream of etudes to develop technique and understand hand position. The more I think about it, in addition to the etudes to teach technique and notes in the upper frets, it would be nice to have something in the rotation that doesn't have a sharp challenge in it. Perhaps not a step "back" musically, but something slightly less challenging --- to give my brain a break and let me feel like I can accomplish something in a shorter period. I am tired of feeling like I am bashing my head against a wall every single week, with every new piece

I enjoy the music from Spanish composers and flamenco. I've learned to appreciate Bach. Samba is fun and slightly silly to my ears. I have no desire to perform, no desire to learn "8675309" (if you know that reference cold, you also know my age group). I have no desire to compose. I wouldn't mind a guitar music theory course. Finding a guitar ensemble is appealing.

After all of the comments here---which have been very very helpful--I think my "ask" for my teacher will be to explain my fatigue with learning new technique and request that my teacher work in something more approachable, for fun, perhaps every 3rd or 4th piece. Then, I will see how it goes.

[u/AlphaHotelBravo]

I also got thoroughly fed up with the "usual" classical guitar repertoire. The world does not need my half-baked interpretations of Sor, Guiliani, Weiss, and so on. I absolutely love early music and baroque but at my late stage in life I will never be a conservatory-grade performer of any of it; a little bit of Bach is fun but I'll never be the next Tariq Harb. After many years' taught and self-taught practice I still had nothing under my fingers which would interest any friend who said "go on, play us something".

I've recently started in-person lessons again after a gap of a dozen years, with a teacher who studied flamenco in Spain and is a teacher of classical guitar in schools.

We're working on filling in the many gaps in my technique using South American pieces (Venezuelan waltzes, who knew there was such a thing!) and also learning flamenco techniques. Having spent many holidays in Andalucia I had a very basic sense of how flamenco works and had always wanted to find out more.

I am absolutely loving this new-to-me approach in learning and repertoire. It's reignited my interest in music generally, I really enjoy my daily practice again, and perhaps I might eventually be able to play something interesting amongst friends if I were ever to be asked.

I guess there might be two parts to my experience - doing something completely different for no other reason than you like the sound of it, and perhaps you might find that enjoyment in music from cultures and eras other than Europe from 1720 to 1920. The world is your lobster!

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/AlphaHotelBravo]

This sounds very familiar to me. Thanks for that.

[u/RuthMcT]

There are plenty of more modern pieces for the classical guitar at an intermediate level. Your teacher's view of what is available and suitable sounds quite limited. My current favourite books -

Vincent Lindsay Clark - Simply Latin. (Five Pictures of Sark is also good, but more challenging)

Leo Brouwer - Etudes Simples/Estudios Sencillios

Gerald Garcia - Etudes Esquisses;

David Cottam - Zebra Music

If you aren't familiar with upper positions yet you may well find Lagrima challenging but that shouldn't stop you trying it. If you decide later you aren't quite ready for it, you can always put it away for a year or so.

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/RuthMcT]

The second line is a challenge, but it doesn’t feel any more frustrating than some of the other études I’ve encountered. In other words, a few weeks of dedicated practice and I’ll be able to work out the “finding” part of learning it, and the shifts. After that, refine, refine, refine. I have not seen a book in years. I spent some time today with it, after practicing scales in the upper positions. It’s coming together.

We started with Charles Duncan book 1, did all of Sagreras book 1, moved to book 2 of The Royal Conservatory series and after that, an endless sea of sheet music, from a variety of sources. The problem for me is—I don’t know what I don’t know.

[u/HistoricalSundae5113]

You need to start prioritizing pieces you love. Classical guitar can easily start turning into work. A lot of people emphasize the perfect practice routine and pedagogy but if it impacts your motivation and desire negatively it’s no good. While not as direct a progression play lots of pieces you love and as you encounter technical barriers you can use technique exercises or etudes to solve those problems.

It’s like any project. You start it and as you run into an issue or road block you problem solve. Then you get feel good brain chemicals and it will reinforce motivation and satisfaction. The best progression path is the one which you can stick with!

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/HistoricalSundae5113]

Thanks.

[u/ASCGuitar]

Thierry Tisserand is a great modern composer who has a good range if intermediate songs that sound beautiful and are attainable to play. He has a good selection of of etudes from his books from "Comme des Etudes" or his book series from "Spleen Songs" or "Comme des Chansons". Can't go wrong with any of his music!

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/ASCGuitar]

I will look it up, thanks for that one.

[u/peephunk]

Have you considered finding other local classical musicians (doesn’t really matter what instrument) to do some ensemble playing?

I also love the classical guitar but not necessarily its standard repertoire. I happened almost accidentally into a duet a couple of years ago. I have found that ensemble playing has been great for my playing both because I love the music we do but also because of the sense of accountability it creates.

[u/No_Salad_6244 → u/peephunk]

My teacher organized impromptu ensembles with other students. Those were enjoyable, but inconsistent. I’d also like to find an ensemble. That WOULD be good for my development and a. Ice change.

[u/Ill-Investigator9241]

Try learning the Brouwer etudes. They are fascinating little miniatures that focus on specific techniques. They are not boring and they will invigorate your practice and actually help you to get good.

[u/RaiseTLT]

yea no you didn't do anything wrong. Lagrima is not a particularly difficult piece of music. If you were able to learn it yourself and play it decently it's definitely not beyond your skill level what so ever.

I think that it's important that us teachers keep in mind that the student is required to enjoy what you're teaching them. If the student begins to feel burnt out by rigid lessons on technique, then the lesson plan should be changed. Otherwise, the student will find someone else to teach them.

I also do 5-15mins of technique at the beginning of a lesson and assign a small technique routine for my students to warm up with. But beyond that lessons are about the music, and where possible the music the student wants to learn. I give my students choices as to what pieces they'll be working on, rather than assigning them music I think is strictly pedagogically relevant to the detriment of their enjoyment of the playing. All within reason of course. If you play at a grade3-4 level, you won't be learning Capriccio Arabe or Asturias for example.

You 100% didn't do anything wrong by learning Lagrima and showing it to your teacher. In fact, the teacher should be proud that you've made enough progress that you can just learn music on your own. Keep playing and practicing Lagrima if you love it! Listen to your teacher, but also you have the right as a student to ask for different things in your lessons, after all you're the one paying, a good service business keeps the client happy.

Anyways, don't worry too much about all this.

[u/blindingspeed80]

Might be time to go south. Check out Villa Lobos, Pernambuco, Brouwer, etc. Branch out. There is so much more.

[u/understandothers]

This is a great question! My own experience is I am a hobbyist as well. I’m a year in and still enjoying the etudes.
My teacher is more a flamenco player though and when he had me working on some flamenco stuff I told him I’m not a fan and would prefer to keep learning more in line with classical and fingerpicking. So he gave me the theme to the Godfather and Is There Anybody Out There by Pink Floyd to work on.
My two cents is a teacher should serve the student. If you can clearly articulate what you want to do, they should be able to help you get there without an agenda of their own, if you are learning for pleasure. Once it’s not pleasurable, the whole thing is rotten.

[u/Even_Tangelo_3859]

I recently moved and changed teachers. I am an older committed hobbyist. I went from a teacher who was okay with focusing almost exclusively on rep to one who wants to pay more attention to etudes/technique, albeit not at the complete expense of rep.
I am glad for the opportunity to get some technique stuff improved, and I have found time spent on etudes more palatable by bringing an intense focus on musicality to the table.

[u/Goudje2022]

Ah, Lágrima. I did that too before I was ready. Took me a year of struggle but so worth it.
You should always be working on something you like beside the studies.

Interaction: Putting study into practice. <--> Finding things you still need to learn in them.