We apologize

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

Hey Ellen,

Although I disagree with the direction reddit HQ is taking with the website, I understand that monetizing a platform such as reddit can be a daunting task. To that effect, I have some questions that I hope you will take some time to address. These represent some of the more pressing issues for me as a user.

Can we have a clear, objective, and enforceable definition of harassment? For example, some subs have been told that publicizing PR contacts to organize boycotts and campaigns is harassment and will get the sub banned - while others continue to do so unabated. I know u/kn0thing touched on this subject recently, but I would like you to elaborate.
Why was the person who was combative and hyper-critical of Rev. Jackson shadowbanned (u/huhaskldasdpo)? I understand he was rude and disrespectful and I would have cared less if he was banned from r/IAMA, but could you shed some light on the reasoning for the site-wide ban?
What are some of the plans that reddit HQ has for monetizing the web site? Will advertisements and sponsored content be labelled as such?
Could you share some of your beliefs and principles that you plan on using to guide the site's future?

I believe that communication is key to reddit (as we know it) surviving its transition in to a profitable website. While I am distraught over how long it took for a site-wide announcement to come out (forcing many users to get statements from NYT/Buzzfeed/etc.), I can relate not wanting to approach a topic before people have had a chance to calm down.

The unfortunate side-effect of this is that it breeds wild speculation. Silence reinforces tinfoil. For example, every time a user post gets caught in auto-mod, someone screams censorship. The admins took no time to address the community outside of the mods of large subreddits. All we, as normal users, heard came from hearsay and cropped image leaks. The failure to understand that a large vocal subset of users are upset of Victoria's firing is a huge misstep in regaining the community's trust.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

So anyway why did you go on to give detailed statements to thirdparty newsfeeds first, before speaking to us? The place with the tagline 'the frontpage of the internet'? The people you slighted in the first place? Hell even buzzfeed got info before this statement from you...

Edit: Ellen responded to me, but I anticipate she will be heavily downvoted so here's the reply

"It was hard to communicate on the site, because my comments were being downvoted. I did comment here and was communicating on a private subreddit. I'm here now."

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u/rfbandit Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

Thank you for finally apologizing on here, instead of through media interviews. Should've come to your community first, instead of the press. But you also miss the point. You say a majority of reddit users don't care. But, those of us who create content for the lurkers care. Acting flippant isn't a good way to get us on your side.

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u/BellyFullOfSwans Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

Krispykrackers is the Admin who shadowbanned my first account for posting a business' phone number and called it "doxxing".

I had a 3 year old account with over 30K karma, over 10 Redditgifts gift exchanges, months of gold given and received (with years still on the books I never got back), a large friends list, etc...banned because I posted the number of a business. I didnt start a witch hunt or say anything bad about the business....I wasnt promoting the business....still, it was seen as doxxing and without anybody else hearing my case, I was shadowbanned (and not notified about it).

When I did figure out what had happened and why I was suddenly talking to myself, I had to look up ways of getting a hold of Reddit. They dont exactly have a customer service hotline (you know, like real businesses with real customers do).

That was a pain, but was able to finally reach somebody. It was Krispykrackers. Her one word reply? "Why do you think it is OK to post personal information?"

And that was it....I never heard another word, I never got an answer back from Reddit Gold about my paid-for months of gold I still had...and u/gekokujo was lost to me over a non-issue.

There was no accountability, no transparency, and no recourse for grievance. As a Reddit Gold user at the time, I was a PAYING CUSTOMER...and as you could have seen from my comment history then (or now), I am not a troll.

Leaving Krispykrackers in charge of fixing your out-of-control staff and unfair practices is worse than letting the fox run the henhouse. Foxes arent evil, they just eat chickens. On the other hand, humans like Krispykrackers have their own sense of social justice and a license to be judge/jury/executioner with no witnesses and only the shadowbanned-mute voices of her opposition to speak up.

There is no solution as long as Krispykrackers is playing a major part. She is as big of a part of the problem as Pao herself and I can prove that (with my own experience and that of others...some involving chat logs from past controversies).

Fix the problem....dont promote the problem to a place where she will further abuse her power and your site.

EDIT - Thanks for the comments, guys. I did get a response from KrispyKrackers that is hidden in the comments below. As thanks for her response and in the spirit of fairness, it definitely deserves to be seen. I apologize for any bad formatting, but I dont think Ive linked a comment before. Also...in the comment above it says that I had "years" remaining on my Gold. Nobody has called me on that yet, but it was just a simple typo and should read "months" instead. Going to leave it up as to not appear tricksy.

KrispyKracker's response

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

How do you feel about this comment by u/CaptainObviousMC.

The thing is... She's absolutely right, I 100% don't care at all about this situation, reddit, or the moderators. I'm a pretty apathetic content sponge.

That fact is deadly dangerous to reddit, because the moment the content creators jump ship, I'll follow them like the fair weather fan I am, because I don't care -- at all -- where I get my content, or about which corporation or moderators are involved. If reddit compromises its content stream by having moderators jump ship, I'm out too, not because I care, but because I don't.

So she's right -- most reddit users absolutely don't care a bit about this, or the site, or really anything. And that's why she can't afford to piss off the moderators, who are the people who do care.

What's hilarious is that the reddit administration seems unable to see that most people not caring is precisely what makes the moderators caring so dangerous: they're wielding my caring by proxy, because they hold the keys to content.

Edit: If you're going to gild this comment, just give it u/CaptainObviousMC instead.

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u/hittingkidsisbad Jul 06 '15

I think it goes hand-in-hand with this comment by u/Wienenschlagen

She's right.
The vast majority of Reddit users don't give a damn.
The vast majority of Reddit users didn't even notice.
The vast majority of Reddit users rarely even hit the voting buttons.
Reddit is not the vast majority of Reddit users.
Reddit is the communities that attract those users, and those communities don't exist without the moderators, the dedicated users, and the content creators.
Of those people, damn near all of them give a damn, and they're very, very upset with how this whole affair was handled.
Saying the "vast majority of Reddit users are uninterested" is the equivalent to saying "the vast majority of the United States is uninterested in its infrastructure."
No duh.
They'd sure be pissed off if it stopped working, though, and firing Victoria without any warning threw a huge wrench into the works.
Ellen Pao is out-of-touch with the company that she runs, the service it provides, and the people who use it. In her ongoing quest to make it a safe, marketable environment, she is driving it into the ground.

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u/AdamKeiper Jul 06 '15

Dear Ms. Pao –

In the interest of transparency, I wonder if you might answer a question or two. Setting aside any personnel matters that you understandably cannot discuss, would you please confirm or deny the claim made several days ago that Reddit, under your leadership, wishes to undertake "a bunch of highly commercial things around AMAs"? Is that characterization correct, partially correct, or entirely incorrect? And, while still eschewing any discussion of individual personnel, would you say that your colleagues — the administrators of Reddit — have largely shared that goal, or has there been substantial pushback and disagreement?

Thank you.

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u/CaptnRonn Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

A few things beyond a PR statement that would restore my faith in the admins:

Stop shadowbanning users - It was a tool made for spam bots, not to silence dissent. The mere fact that a perfectly legitimate user can be shadowbanned without their knowledge is ridiculous, and it has been happening more and more in the past few months/year
Stop subreddit favoritism - You want to have anti-harassment rules? Great. Enforce them in every. sub. equally. Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links. Why does SRS get away with being able to post direct links with obvious brigading?

Also, u/ekjp, as much as I would like to think that things are business as usual with you as CEO, you have made some very questionable statements regarding free speech and sexism in tech from a position that is seemingly vacant in logic. The fact that you feel you must talk to major news sites before actually acknowledging your userbase is troubling to say the least. You have done nothing to earn my trust or support, and in fact have done several things to reinforce the opposite. So... prove me wrong?

Edit: Yes I am now aware that my knowledge of np links was wrong. Thank you for informing me everyone. Not going to edit the post as the point still stands. Enforce rules across subs equally.

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u/Mumberthrax Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

Stop shadowbanning users

for example, this sort of person: http://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/351buo/tifu_by_posting_for_three_years_and_just_now/

Stop subreddit favoritism - You want to have anti-harassment rules? Great. Enforce them in every. sub. equally. Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links. Why does SRS get away with being able to post direct links with obvious brigading?

np links are not a reddit thing, they're a derpy css hack and the admins have stated (well at least some of them) that they don't support them. they've said they're working on anti-brigading tools, but I don't know more than that.
edit: funnily enough, one of the biggest issues I have with reddit is the abuses of power/tools that reddit grants to moderators (ironic because a lot of mods and powerusers controlling the discussion are making out that the biggest problem is that mods need MORE tools. tools are fine and can be used for good, and they are used for bad a lot). so regarding NP links, r/politics for example was banning users who never posted to r/politics simply for participating in r/modlog which does not use NP links because they are a derpy CSS hack, and linking to other parts of reddit shouldn't be discouraged, participating as part of the greater reddit community shouldn't be discouraged. It's kind of nuts.
edit2: IMO the community needs better tools to deter these sorts of abuses of power. The simplest being the option for a subreddit to have a public moderation log like the admins created in ages past. If there were an official version, it would be great. Currently the best we've got (in my opinion) is u/publicmodlogs which I created and u/go1dfish created a nifty frontend for.

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u/DoctorDank Jul 06 '15 edited Jun 04 '22

Edited from 2022: LMAO at the cesspool that Reddit has become. Can't say anything against your protected classes (gays, trannies, people of color) or you get banned.

Freedom of speech my left nut.

Original comment:

Your second to last paragraph is spot on.

These are just words.

You haven't actually instituted any reforms yet. To be honest, this just feels like corporate newspeak. You're just telling us what we want to hear. I think you'd ve a better response if you actually instituted the reforms you speak of, instead of just talking about how you're going to do them.

Because talk is cheap.

But, at least you acknowledge that the way you went about dismissing Victoria was utterly tone-deaf, and very disrespectful to the (unpaid, hard-working) moderators who relied on her in order to make their subreddits the very best.

Oh wait no, you totally didn't do that either. You just say you're acknow ledging a "long history" of mistakes, without actually acknowledging them at all!

More newspeak.

So, I don't really know what to make of this "announcement." Guess we'll just have to wait and see if you put your money where your mouth is, won't we?

Edit: much thanks to u/alloutpenguinwar for guilding my comment!

Edit 2: for those of you telling me software development takes time? No shit. I know that. That doesn't mean reddit inc couldn't have laid out at least some sort of timetable, as opposed to nebulous promises of mod tools being available in the future. And yes, you can have timetables for software development. Happens all the time. So sorry, that's not a legitimate excuse for, well, anything.

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u/cahaseler Jul 06 '15

Hi Ellen,

r/IAMA mod here. First, thank you for finally making a statement about this on reddit.

Second, can you go into more detail about the direction you see for celebrity participation on Reddit in a post-Victoria age? Alexis has made some comments to us behind the scenes about your ideas to encourage celebrity participation beyond AMAs, but I'd love to have the conversation in a more public space where everyone can participate.

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u/UnholyDemigod Jul 06 '15

(please note: my status as a mod has zero bearing on my comment. This is from me, and me alone.)

Ellen - u/ekjp - I have defended you (and the entire admin staff) for a long time. When people made comments about how you were turning reddit into a SJW haven, I told them to shut the fuck up. When the FPH people made you out to be a nazi, I went through threads and did my best to tell these people how they were wrong, and you were actually doing good by reddit. But with your recent comments to the media, you have made it very hard to continue to defend you. For example, you say it's only the vocal minority who cares about this. This and other things you have said lead me to believe one of two things: you either do not understand the reddit userbase, or you do not care. If the former is true, do you plan to rectify this? If the latter is true, and you don't care about this site, why did you take the job?

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

Could you explain your plans for Alien Blue? It's a fantastic app and a smart purchase, but Reddit is letting it languish. It still looks like iOS 6, it still has a custom share sheet instead of the new and fantastic iOS 8 sheet, it lacks an app extension for sharing from other apps, and iOS 9 is almost here.

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u/slickdealsceo Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

This will probably be buried in the depths of this thread, but as someone who is a steward and community advocate at Slickdeals, I thought I might be able to relay some of the insight we've garnered as we've built our community.

I was one of the original founders, former CEO, and now the Chief Product Officer and as such I've had the opportunity to put a lot of process in place, as well as help ask the right questions whenever we do things. Naturally all communities have their nuances and differences, but in the end it boils down to respect. Respect the community: honor your users and content contributors for the work and effort they do.

Often this results in us taking a tradeoff in what we call "Technical Debt vs Community Debt" where instead of creating friction for our users, we take on a technical burden instead. For instance, we launched a redesign recently, and instead of forcing everyone over, we maintained a classic version of the website, and told ourselves that we would maintain two versions of the site for the foreseeable future, and do our best to improve the redesigned version to the point that it compels people to switch ("lets make it so much better that they willingly switch").

We often sit down and ask ourselves the following questions, in no particular order or priority:

Is what we're doing impacting the way the community uses the website? How does it impact all the different types of users: casual users, frequent visitors, lurkers, content contributors, power users, etc.
Are you moving someone's cheese? Are you changing something that users are very used to or have been conditioned to? Is there a way to transition it smoothly?
Does it impact the way our mods use the website? How about our editors, or other internal staff?
Does it impact the way our content contributors use the website?
Does it impact the integrity, trustworthiness, or authenticity of our brand, content or community, even if its just the perception of such?
Does it impact the sense of community, their sense of ownership, pride or involvement with the website?
Are you addressing the needs of the community, especially ones that were explicitly requested? Did you make a tradeoff? If possible, can you address both your goals and the communities needs at the same time? At the very least, do not ignore what your community is asking for.
What do you anticipate the negative feedback to be like or about? How will you respond to it?
Are you releasing a "complete" product (is it finished?), if not: what is missing and why did you choose to omit things?
How are you communicating these changes or reasons to the community? Did you solicit their feedback before, during and after the change? We've learned that communication is key: frequent and open communication. Users may not always agree with us, but they are usually reasonable and will at least understand it if you explain why you need to do something. One of the best ways to manage change, in my opinion, is to solicit that feedback and actually act on it quickly. You wont make everyone happy, but the fact that you listened, considered and ultimately acted lets the community know that you're listening and working -with- them.
What is the plan immediately after the change? Who will handle interacting with the community, collecting the feedback and making action items for them? Do you have resources set aside to quickly respond to the user feedback and fix bugs or issues as quickly as possible to minimize the risk/impact to the community?

Admittedly, we're not perfect either, but we've learned over the past years that if you're willing to engage with your community, they can be pretty cooperative and understanding, so long as you actually put a good faith effort into taking their feedback, listening to their concerns and being responsive in a timely manner. And as you probably noticed, since u/ekjp actually communicated here, the nature of the responses overall is markedly less hostile - because once you connect with someone on a personal level they become much more reasonable.

Edit: I don't deserve the gold, but thank you kind stranger! But one more thing I'll say is that the community is vocal in threads like these because they've invested into this community and they feel a part of it. View people's feedback as passionate (even if it's harsh) because they care, and because they want things to improve.

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u/Muaddibisme Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

Hi Ellen,

I am certain that you realize much of the userbase (or at least enough of the userbase ) is upset enough that your words are meaningless to them. Or at least too little too late.

I don't have any direct investment in the current situation but it does effect me and all of reddit.

You and the administrative team have made several decisions starting before you came to reddit that the community has openly opposed. Yet you ignored them completely, not even addressing their legitimate concerns. Sometimes, mocking them in private (always be careful what you and your team put to ink).

This reminds me quite a bit of the windows 8 launch. No one was surprised by window 8's failure because the community had been telling Microsoft for quite some time that win8 was not what they wanted, that it was laid out in a way that they didn't want, and that it would fail if they released it. They didn't listen.

I feel that Reddit is at the same crossroads. The community has definitely been telling you how they feel and you have ignored them and in some cases mocked them. You are walking a dangerous path that will likely lead to significant brand damage at the very least.

To save what you can you need to step back from your title and salary and spend some time becoming a redditor. The community has asked you for specific items and you need to do more than post a generalized CYA message.

I realize that any changes will take time and most of reddit does as well. However, if you want the community to see your words are more than another hollow pile of crap, post your goals and how you are going to meet them, not just that you have goals. Address the specifics with specific language. Engage yourself in teh community instead of standing apart from it.

Reddit doesn't need a CEO, it needs a 'lead redditor'. Think on that for the good of us all.

Many specific items can be found in other posts in this thread and I am sure that the couple I post here are already covered but I think that starting with these is how to start.

End Shadowbans.

Do it today. Stop it immediately. Don't wait. If a user is to be removed from a sub or from reddit in general there needs to be a process, not teh whim of an admin.

Someone to be banned should be informed before the ban is permanent. The ban must be reviewed by another party and the person to be banned needs to be able to defend themselves.

Yes, there are people who need to be banned. Yes, admins have full control over who can do what on reddit. No, you don't owe anyone any of this. However, it only takes one wrongful ban to enrage your user base and there has already been many more than one.

The temper of an mod should never screw over a user. Put a process in place and use it.

2) Solidify rules for subs and enforce them.

The most recent of all of this is of course FPH and the fallout that ensued. I don't support FPH but it does expose a giant issue with reddit and not for the first time (merely the most recent).

If you are going to ban subs (and really posts as well) you must have a solid set of guidelines by which you judge such things and it must be applied evenly to all subs. No matter who they are or how big they are or who mods them. You simply can't have it any other way.

Either all is permitted or what is not permitted but be the same for everyone.

Again, yes reddit has the right to do whatever it wants. However, your userbase expects an even application of the rules.

3) More than words.

If you had issued an apology long ago none of this would be an issue. However, you didn't. You even went so far s to talk to others before dealing with your userbase. I saw in one of your other replies that you blamed downvoting as to why. Yet, you can make a sticky post to the front page. There really was no reason for you not to address this a couple days ago, or the FPH crap the day after it happened.

However, you didn't. Instead you allowed the pot to stew. Now your words will fall on deaf ears (eyes?) and you have already hemorrhaged users. It isn't going to destroy reddit, At least not without further blundering, but backtracking at this point will be very difficult.

You need to do more than make a couple posts.

What I suggest is that you take these threads and gather the issues the community want addressed then make a post with those items and what specific steps you will take to address them, with an expected timeline.

This will be a significant amount of work but it is back logged work whose deadline is long past.

_

I don't want to see reddit die and I don't want to see it transformed into digg or similar). You must allow your community and moderators to drive your decision, not to try to make decisions to drive your mods and community.

I truly hope that more comes of this than empty promises and CYA postings. The opportunity for you to change the communities perception is at hand but how you handle it will determine everything and so far it doesn't look favorable.

-Muad'Dib

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u/Simple_Tymes Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

The average users don't care about moderator tools. What matters to the passionate non-mod reddit community is:

PAID CONTENT: Will AMA and other reddit subs have content paid by sponsors? Will you disclose if reddit receives money for specific corporate posts to receive higher placement/votes? How far are you willing to go to monetize reddit?

CENSORSHIP: Will you delete subs based on advertisers' requests? Will you ban users who don't agree with specific speech/content guidelines?

POOR MANAGEMENT: The firing of Victoria may, in fact, be completely justified. But the pure business of firing the head of AMAs (arguably Reddit's highest profile sub) was simply terrible management. Why didn't you know how your business is run? Why didn't you have a transition strategy in place for Victoria's departure? Why didn't she introduce her replacement to her important clients/mods? How is this not business 101?

TRUST: Reddit is run by the good will of unpaid moderators. How can they trust you that their content won't be regulated based on corporate sponsorship? The rumors regarding Victoria's firing over disagreement about turning AMA into a money machine must be addressed. And "we don't discuss firings" isn't good enough -- what is Reddit's plan for the future of the AMAs? And why should we trust you to continue to support a site that doesn't seem to respect your intelligence?

Simply, if these issues aren't addressed, then it's time to move somewhere else. If Reddit wants to turn the community into an advertiser platform (and do it in the most unprofessional, mismanaged way) then there's no sense in supporting a site that no longer shares our beliefs. Why should we trust you to do the right thing?

Edit: for Yishan and kn0wing:

LEADERSHIP: CEOs are the public face of a company. Good CEOs give investors and customers confidence in the company. While toxic CEOs bring companies crashing down. So what does Ellen bring to Reddit? Her previous work history is mired in controversy, as is her husband's. They've both been universally destructive of the companies they were part of, as well as exhibiting questionable morals and ethics. So what qualities or assets did Ellen bring to the table to get the job at reddit? Her hiring -- and subsequent defense by Yishan and kn0wing -- doesn't speak well to the decisions that are driving the company. What value does Pao possess that makes her, despite her personal and professional toxic qualities, a value to reddit?

INTERIM: Ellen Pao has been called an "interim ceo" though she's quoted as saying she'll leave "over her dead body." Isn't her mismanagement of AMAs and her role as the public face of the company, losing users and potentially money, cause for letting her go? Why isn't now the perfect time to end her temporary employment and find a real CEO?

FOUNDATION: Wouldn't reddit be better served as a foundation similar to wikipedia?

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u/wanttoshreddit Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 15 '15

Stacksity - I think the concept of this is pretty great - it's really simple looking but it's obviously well put together. Subreddits here are 'stacks' and while these stacks aren't moderated the better content does rise to the top and you can explore various areas fairly easily once you have an account and subscribe to those that you're into.
I must admit I do find the $ prefixing everything kinda obnoxious though.
However nothing gets removed as far as I can tell and it's new so we should really cut it some slack and see how it grows. I'm looking forward to seeing how it expands.
Voat - Voat is essentially a Reddit clone - and that's OK. They have a karma system and the community is nice and welcoming and very open to discussion. It's very basic looking and if you're familiar with how Reddit works you'll be familiar with Voat works.
They get a lot of flak for being down often but it's run by a small but dedicated team who take donations to try and keep the servers up so it's rather admirable that they're doing as well as they are as whenever Reddit messes up people throw it around to immediately jump ship.
It's fun and fairly light though.
Snapzu - Snapzu is a much more polished looking link aggregator. You can post 'snaps' which are links/content to various channels that they call 'tribes' and it has a wide variety of subjects for you to explore. There's a rep system which accumulates over time with titles for you to get - but it does mean that those who have signed up earlier get more perceived clout than those that are new. At the moment you have to request an invite to join BUT they tend to dish those out quickly enough.
I have to say though it's not as...strongly opinionated as Reddit which is a good and a bad thing as it lends to very passive and dull comments.
Campus Society - THEY OFFERED HER A JOB!! This is purely aimed at university and college students so this won't be of any appeal those who aren't attending. You're grouped into channels where you can instant chat / post content with other students in your classes and university. This went live on Monday so it's very new in beta but there's also groups you can join similar to subreddits where you can chat / post and it's proving popular in London for a way of meeting new people who are at your university but haven't met yet.
It doesn't rely on upvotes / likes to determine user score but a 'GPA' system which goes up if users respond well to you and down if you're inactive over a long period of time or get reported by other users.
Full disclosure I'm part of the team here but if you have any questions I'm happy to answer them! (If your university isn't featured let me know and I can check that out)
Wechat - Now most people assume that this app, and sorry it's app based, is primarily just for the Chinese due to it's massive Chinese audience. Which is fair as it used to be Weixin and it did start in China. It does however have a massive, and very engaged, English speaking community and while there's as bit of culture clash it's actually a very interesting community to be a part of. However to find good content you have to find public accounts from people who post that content so you do end up having to put a bit of work in to find content you like.
I really enjoy the personal touch of that because there's a much more personal connection with these people as they tend to respond often, use actual names/faces, and have a real passion for what they're doing but it can be rather intense at times.
Aether - Another app based community however it's on the otherside of the coin. While Wechat is a hyperactive platform where you use your real name etc this is much more private scene which uses anonymous posting.
They're not likely to go down anytime soon though because their infrastructure does not rely on a centralised server setup but p2p. Their goal originally was simply to be a purely anonymous reddit so if you're privacy orientated this might be interesting for you but as it's links and not images etc most people might not find it that interesting - especially as it's in dire need of content and as anyone can pretend to be you it's hard to build any sense of community.
Yik Yak an interesting concept but the execution leaves something to be desired for the most part. Recent changes have improved the flow of conversation though which is good as you can identify who you're responding to and the community has taken steps to help cut down on abuse which was a problem early on. Yaks with -5 are deleted so the community polices itself.
Yaks are text based though and very short form so this might not appeal to everyone but it can be rather lighthearted and interesting for localised content.
The Student Room - This is an old school forum really primarily focused on UK students but it's got a wonderfully dedicated moderation team and a strong core community who are extremely helpful. Like most forums it is broken down into a wide variety of subjects/interests and users build rep through going their posts liked etc.
It's rather solid but it is definitely focused more on the UK student crowd.
Stumble Upon - This is how I found Reddit originally about 4 years or so ago as Digg was blocked at work. Stumble Upon is rather simple in its approach but it's a great way to view all types of content. Simply signup, select your interests, then click the Stumble Upon button and it'll randomly select you a tagged page/article/video based on what you selected. The community isn't really that big on commenting and what not, per se, but there is certainly something very addictive about clicking that button for new content.
Honestly I had so much love for this website I fear to go back.
Hacker News - This one is more for the tech orientated crowd and despite the overly abused 'hacker' title it's a great site for keeping in the loop with changes in the tech industry and for new and upcoming sites and startups.
After r/technology took a tumble in quality I ended up just going back to Hacker News for quite awhile to be honest as it's simple, practical, and the community is very informed and helpful.
Product Hunt - This is a dedicated community focused on sharing and talking about the latest websites and startups. It's invite only if you want to discuss but you can vote until PH decide you're worthy of commenting. Some people complain of them being a tad elitist but I've met the team first hand and they're pretty dedicated to focusing purely on making a platform that's about showcasing the latest and greatest.
Though it does get a bit dull seeing the same people leaving comments and the discussion can be pretty thin.
Tumblr I'm expecting a bit (see lot) of flak for suggesting Tumblr but if you stay away from the echochamber angry ranty people and explore some of the more popular tags you'll find that there's a whole wealth of quality content worth reading. They're more into their TV/Film fandoms and so if you're not able to stomach that kind of thing you might want to pass but for lighthearted content it's not that bad.
Personally it's not to my liking but it's a viable alternative that while hated on will more than likely have something to cater to your taste.
Newsvine - I really like Newsvine - it's a small company that focus on linking out news but it's nowhere as extreme as r/worldnews and the community is rather interested in current events. Discussion is small / limited however so you really have to put some effort in to generate discussion but it can certainly be worth it if quality and not quantity of replies work for you.
Frizbee I really dig how Frizbee are with anonymity and their general mission. Their mods are vocal but friendly but best of all their against censorship and really want to see their community grow in line with that. Which pretty much lends well to open discussion. They're in beta and while the site could do with some fine tuning it's a great experience despite the lack of polish.
Slicer This is small and ran by a single person, as far as I'm aware, but I quite like to lurk on it and have a nosey around. Terms of use are pretty standard but I'm looking forward to seeing how this evolves as there's steady traction and I'm not entirely sure if the admin has made a decision on how he wants to grow his site.
It can be a little messy though as the default page throws everything into "Any" as opposed to a space, which function like subreddits, but I kinda do like that as it reminds me of how r/all used to be.
Seriously though props to this guy if it's just the one person as it's really well done.

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u/kethryvis Jul 07 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

This'll get buried, but hey. May as well add to the pile. Not that anyone is going to read this low.

I wrote my master's thesis on online communities, and specifically on the communication (or lack of) between online communities and the companies that run the sites they gather on. I focused on LiveJournal, which a lot of us remember for having a lot of user insurrections much like what we're seeing here.

As I wrote, I made a brief article that I titled "Top 9 things to never do to your online community." These were brief takeaways, things I noticed being repeated over and over again (as an anthropologist, I tend to look for patterns). Reddit broke SO MANY of these in this instance. In fact.. pretty much all of them.

1. Don't bury the lead.

You took this action on a Thursday, right before a long weekend, and as far as anyone can tell, didn't announce it anywhere. The more you try to hide something, the more a community will dig and dig and dig to find out what happened. And when you do it on a holiday, you've just given them prime time to do so. What do we do on our weekends but sit on your site and create content?

2. Don't talk down to them.

Several of the responses from Reddit admins sounded fairly patronizing. Don't do that. Treat your users how you want them to treat you. And remember... we can smell bullshit in a statement like a fart in a car. Don't make flowery promises. This statement isn't overly flowery.. but there's some stuff in there making my whiff detector go off. Be careful here.

3. Don't underestimate your community.

This sort of goes with #1. Don't think that they won't notice when something happens, don't think they won't get upset when a wildly popular member of your staff is fired without warning or reason. Don't think they'll just sit on their hands going "well. that's a bummer." If 15 years of online communities have taught me anything, it's that they don't sit on their hands.

4. Don't ignore your community and its opinions.

Mods had a really hard time getting answers. Considering they do the bulk of the work on your site, that's a really bad move.

5. Don't just give them lip service.

This post is better than most "we fucked up" posts i've seen, you've given two concrete things that are already in place, and another that is promised, but could still be vaporware. You're "committed to talking more often with the community" but you don't say how that's going to happen. And your own site makes this difficult; anything you say is going to be downvoted, which means no one will see it. That's a recipe for disaster right there.

6. Don't keep things from them.

We understand that you can't go into details on why Victoria was let go. Personnel issues are highly confidential, and pretty much everyone gets that. But finding a way to address what happened and give answers while still preserving confidentiality. It's hard. But I have to think you're all fairly smart people and can figure out how to make that happen. Or at least get out in front of it before everyone throws a fit. Then YOU control the story, and aren't scrambling to respond.

7. Don't believe you're the center of your user's world.

Sure you're a big part of a lot of people's lives, but you're not the only place. If people get pissed off at you, they're not just going to keep it here. They're going to go to all the other places online they hang out and bitch. i saw stories on reddit, on Twitter, on Facebook, Tumblr... everywhere people hang out online, people were talking about the #RedditRevolt. That takes a minor kerfuffle and turns it huge, fast.

8. Don't take your users for granted.

You're the current "thing" but the "next thing" is already on the horizon. Don't think you can do what you want, especially if it's outside the communities ideals, and they'll still stick around, or you'll attract the ones that will agree with you. Replacement doesn't work. Because once you have a reputation for not listening to your users, that'll stick, no matter who agrees with you or not.

9. Don't just take the attitude of "we'll never make everyone happy, so fuck it, we'll do what we want."

This is the most dangerous attitude to take. You don't seem to be doing it.. yet. I just hope you don't ever do so.

takes off pith helmet, hops off soapbox

edited for formatting

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

Okay, so I'm going to go ahead and ask my questions regards to the current state of Reddit. As I see it, there are a few issues that need to be addressed publicly ans specifically. These are all based on the userbase "perceptions." Not being in any loop to the recent drama, these are all just what I'm getting based on they hype going on. I'd love your response to the following issues:

Censorship - There's a fine line between making Reddit a "safe" place and making Reddit a place where you dare not ever offend. Part of Reddit's appeal is that here is a place where you can voice your opinions and hopefully find others to discuss topics with. Currently fatpeoplehate is banned, but what if someday there's an "up in arms" issue between (as only an example) the atheist and religious subreddits. Do we start banning groups because SOMEONE might take offense to the existence of specific subreddits. When do we start banning, when do we just ignore? I don't have an answer on when it is and isn't appropriate to remove groups, but I'd think it's better to put things in the hands of the individual users / groups than censoring anything site-wide. If I don't want to see fatpeoplehate, give me tools to block it completely...
Trust - There's definitely a trust issue going on. As you've stated, the person who asked the offensive Jesse Jackson comment wasn't shadowbanned, but in fact deleted the account. Perception was that Reddit Admins could and would shadowban people who offend/bother them. This tells me that you have a trust issue with your userbase as we're starting to see the Admins as the enemy, not the great folks who give us this cool place to hang out. I'd love to know how you plan to repair the users' trust issues. My opinion here is that there should be a lot more transparency on what Admins have and haven't done with regards to bans, censorship, and frontpage manipulations.
Evil Reddit Management - There's also a perception out there that Reddit's Management (not the day-to-day Admins exactly) aren't good people. Victoria's firing has highlighted this, as have apparently other Admin firings that have come to light. I agree with your policy of not speaking to specifics about personnel issues, but Reddit and you very specifically have come across as heartless with the immediateness of these firings. The "nice" people that Reddit users tend to be really don't like the idea that Reddit might not be a great place to work and we don't want to support a place that mistreats their employees. We actually want the Admins and Users to all get along and make Reddit something special. Axing a high profile, well-liked Admin like Victoria without some sort of press release is a mistake as "we" want to make sure all her hard work and kindness to "us" wasn't just completely disregarded in this decision. In short, the Admins in general seem like nice people and we want them to make sure they're treated nicely, even when a parting of ways happens.

Those are my concerns moving forward and I'd love to see responses.

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u/ErisC Jul 07 '15

Censorship - There's a fine line between making Reddit a "safe" place and making Reddit a place where you dare not ever offend. Part of Reddit's appeal is that here is a place where you can voice your opinions and hopefully find others to discuss topics with. Currently fatpeoplehate is banned, but what if someday there's an "up in arms" issue between (as only an example) the atheist and religious subreddits. Do we start banning groups because SOMEONE might take offense to the existence of specific subreddits. When do we start banning, when do we just ignore? I don't have an answer on when it is and isn't appropriate to remove groups, but I'd think it's better to put things in the hands of the individual users / groups than censoring anything site-wide. If I don't want to see fatpeoplehate, give me tools to block it completely...

Regarding Censorship, here's the thing. I'm a mod over on r/asktransgender and as you can imagine, we get a LOT of harassment from trolls and anti-trans folks. In fact, while everyone was drama-ing about fatpeoplehate getting shut down, nobody noticed that a trans harassment subreddit was also shut down.
That subreddit (which I won't mention, but you'll find it), was dedicated towards harassing our members: either over PM, by posting photoshopped photos of them and ridiculing them on their subreddit and other related sites, by spamming our subreddit, etc.
They were harassing users, who've previously posted that they're suicidal on r/asktransgender and other subreddits, over PM, posting shit about them publicly, finding images our users posted in the past on their progress and plastering them on their hate subreddit, and more shit. But apparently shutting down their launching area and banning all of their members is "censorship".
Thing is, a subreddit ban only goes so far, and users have ways of easily circumventing them, plus they don't end harassment via PM. When it comes to that, the ability for admins to shadowban them (and any new accounts they create), and shut down harassment subreddits, is invaluable.
What tools could they possibly give us that would have the same effect?
We hardly hear from their lot anymore. So that's great.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

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u/fireysaje Jul 06 '15

If you're using Reddit is Fun you can do this.

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u/TryUsingScience Jul 06 '15

You can do that with gold. r/all-funny, for example, shows you r/all but filters out r/funny.

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u/theonefoster Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

You can do exactly this if you have gold. Use www.reddit.com/r/all-funny-adviceanimals-worldnews... And you can add as many subs as you like with minus signs between them. You'll see r/all but with those subs excluded, so you can filter out the crap without missing anything from subs you don't subscribe to.
Here's the bookmark I use:
https://www.reddit.com/r/all-adviceanimals-amateur-asiansGoneWild-ass-asstastic-art-aww-awwducational-babyelephantgifs-baseball-bigboobsgw-blackpeopletwitter-boobies-books-bustyPetite-cats-dayz-diy-dota2-eyebleach-fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu-food-foodPorn-funny-gameOfThrones-getMotivated-GlobalOffensive-gonewild-gonewildCurvy-hearthstone-historyporn-hockey-leagueOfLegends-makeupAddiction-milf-minecraft-music-nba-nsfw-NSFW_GIF-oldschoolcool-petiteGoneWild-pics-polandBall-progresspics-reactiongifs-RealGirls-RoomPorn-smashbros-wheredidthesodago-thelastairbender

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

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u/Waldhorn Jul 06 '15

Well said, While I also would like to see a return of the friendly reddit. I feel that Pao has already moved in 'safety crews' of admins to prevent offense thus making Reddit a more marketable commodity at the expense of tolerant community.

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u/AnOnlineHandle Jul 07 '15

How did Pao do anything though? FPH was banned because the mods broke one of reddit's only 5 rules about not posting personal information (they stalked a victim's employee page and took their details and photos and put them in the sidebar), and for brigading suicidewatch trying to get people to kill themselves.
These have been against the rules on reddit since forever, and enforced by the admins, because of the dangerous stalky people on the Internet, who made them necessary, long before Pao was involved.

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u/roadrunnermeepbeep3 Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

There's also a perception out there that Reddit's Management (not the day-to-day Admins exactly) aren't good people.

That's not a perception, it's the reality. Reddit's management are not good people. There's simply no reasonable debate to be had about that.
A good management would never have fired that girl like that. They would have detected that they had a problem, sought to resolve it, or else then planned for a smooth transition by introducing another employee. They didn't do that. Fuck it, they fired her. Why? Because she had ethical concerns. So they just fucking tossed her in a bin with zero planning or forethought. Those are the actions of an entitled asshole, not a competent managerial team.
And you know what, that's sad. Good people are not that hard to find. Assholes are a dime a dozen. And Reddit is run by a whole bunch of assholes.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

Keep in mind, none of us are really on the inside of this issue. By all accounts, it sounds like there's an issue here. How would we REALLY know from our position.

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u/geocitiesdreaming Jul 06 '15

Yeah, but no. What I'm about to say is absolutely going to be buried, and that's fucking fine, but I just need to say it somewhere

MOD TOOLS ARE A PROBLEM, BUT A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM IS THE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE THAT IS HAPPENING TO REDDIT; THAT WAS NOT ADDRESSED HERE, AND IS NOT ONLY CONTINUALLY NOT BEING ADDRESSED, BUT CONTINUALLY BEING BURIED UNDER "MOD TOOLS" AND THE REDDIT COMMUNITY IS PRETTY MUCH FALLING IN LINE.

Long time lurker, don't even particularly care about reddit that much, but when I see this many people simply not getting what is a very obvious situation, I have to say something. For clarity and brevity I will try and do this in list form:

Generally agreed upon roblems with reddit

Censorship
Commercialization
No transparency
No communication
No Respect

I think that's pretty much the long-and-short of it. But look at this post carefully, then look at everything she and Alexis have been saying to media sources in the past two days. They have entirely been spinning this problem as "oh, we're sorry, we don't know how to communicate! We really screwed up with mod tools, we're so sorry!" And I get why some random reporter from another news site would bite that, but that fact that so many redditors are completely buying that as the primary, and ostensibly only, issue is fucking mind boggling. Yes, mod tools are an issue. Yes, I want the mods to get what they need, but there is a gigantic difference between one problem that can essentially be solved with a dedicated and competent staff, and another problem which is a group of leader fundamentally changing the ethos of an entire website, not only are the nowhere near close to having the same importance, but when most of the reddit hivemind seems to follow this Pao party line that the "mod tools issue" is the primary issue, then it almost becomes black comedy.

And I completely understand that she can't talk about Victoria being fired. However, from the few things we do know about that situation, we can deduce a few things:

Obviously it was a bad firing since Victoria happily stood aside while reddit burned over her firing.
While not an undeniable fact, anyone with common sense can deduce that she was likely fired because she was the person stopping them from commercializing AMAs

THIS IS A HUGE DEAL

The Victoria firing is not a catalyst, or in any way an isolated issue. None of these are isolated ideas. Increased censorship plays for the case of commercialization, (And my "censorship" I don't only mean the FPH business, i mean for the past two days I have been looking at the differences between the top posts and the front page and it is remarkable how many incredibly-upvoted anti-reddit posts are not making it to the front page. This is very clearly website manipulation to make it seem like it's business as usual). Victoria being fired plays for commercialization. Mods not having the tools they need makes them less powerful which also plays for the case of commercialization. COMMERCIALIZATION IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END OF THIS WHOLE MESS. Unless you guys want a reddit where every post is an advertisement, something has to be done about this now.

Everything about how they have spun the narrative, to how they manipulate the front page, to their business practices, to this awful marketing class PR memo they crudely labeled as an "apology" smells disgusting.

And what about that leaked screenshot of Alexis talking to mods where he explicitly said that all AMAs while be coordinated through an AMA email address, but would not give an answer on who that person is. That's essentially a smoking gun that is on gawker, digg and god knows where else, but is for some reason unable to make any traction on reddit. And I know that it's partially because so many power users are drinking kool aid, but it's also because, frankly, it seems like this entire website is being manipulated with ease from corporate HQ. I mean, that's the new plan with AMAs, sponsored AMA working through Alexi's weird nerve point email address which will likely be housed by a team of PR/marketing aficionados who will ensure that AMAs will be glorified commercials.

But whatever, clearly these people won, clearly you guys are fine with spending all day on a glorified home shopping network that poses as a forum. I'm off to fucking Voat anyway, but I had to fucking put this somewhere, just for my own fucking sanity, because I am really just astounded that no one can put this together.

Godspeed

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u/TotesMessenger Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 09 '15

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u/jordanlund Jul 06 '15 edited Jul 06 '15

I would just like to know the thought process behind not having a backup plan following the termination of a key employee. I don't expect anyone to say why Victoria was fired, that's none of my business, but there had to be a reason why that information was not communicated to the rest of the community and certainly the AMA participants of that day.

In his statement u/kn0thing stated that AMAs would go on as scheduled, but the fact of the matter is that the AMAs scheduled to go on that day were disrupted due to Victoria's absence and the entire kerfuffle was created when an AMA participant was not being contacted and was forced to message the mods to find out what was going on, which triggered their reaction of "We don't know, what's going on?"

You acknowledge "mistakes were made", but I'd really like to know who made the mistakes and what their rationale was at the time for doing so.

It's sad when I'm being encouraged to think that the best case scenario is merely incompetence. Did people responsible for the firing not know there were AMAs going on that day? Did they not know who the AMAs were with and as a result were not able to reach out? Why didn't they know?

These are some pretty basic questions that need to be answered and resolved if you want to re-build trust with the community.

EDIT guys... guys... u/kn0thing is TRYING to answer my question honestly, please stop downvoting him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3cbo4m/we_apologize/csu6y0z

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '15

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u/Conan3121 Jul 06 '15

Days after damage control interviews in mainstream media that stockholders and investment advisors read, the CEO of a beleaguered internet based company issues an official statement.

Boilerplate text bland statement, written by HR and vetted for plausible deniability by Legal.

Waits a day or two to post so the furore settles and the announcement has some clear air to reach investors.

Blames the episode on the Three Pillars Of Corporate Apology (hereafter TTPOCA) :

mistakes by the prior administrations
poor communication methods that we will now fix using trusted company insiders, and
slower than we hoped for IT development.

Added 2 bits of seasoning to the recipe with a folksy "we screwed up", and a followup hit back at personal attacks by a vocal minority of users.

As part of the product, I recognise a clear case of Big Company Behaving Badly Syndrome (BCBBS, abbreviation BS, variant type: quick profit and exit strategy).

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