RantRantRant

[u/AJthebluemarker]

I've only watched seasons 1 to 3, skipping 4 for now or forever, and I've got some takes which are generally cold but boiling with rage because wtfwtfwtf.

(1) Ianto. My boy.

I understood Owen's death. I understood even Tosh's death. They made sense. Owen died with the nuclear facility's lockdown and after being miserable with his shit version of immortality, and Macintosh died after confessing her feelings (and also having been shot or whatever)

WHAT WAS WITH IANTO'S DEATH???

what were they fucking thinking when they just Walked Over to 456 with ABSOLUTELY NO PLAN and went "Stop." And it went "No. Death gas" and Jack was collapsed on the floor going "NOT HIM!" JACKNESS WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ISTFG. Ianto could've died in the ending for some other majestic purpose if the Favourite Character Assassin (Russel T.D.) wanted him dead so fucking badly.

(2) The Transphobic Throwaway

Which fucking dumbass wrote that line. It was like some skin walker was wearing a Jack suit. I have never been more appalled with how out of character that stupid line was. It wouldn't even be funny to transphobes, it was just a Shit Line. And he fucking deadnamed her too. "Since then I've always been a little nervous when a friend acts out of character." Actually dudes this caught me so off guard I thought I was watching the wrong show. Stained the image I had it Jack in my head, had to scrape that memory off entirely to watch the next episode.

[u/No-Information-1235]

i saw a really good analysis of jack’s motivation/thinking for just trying to valiantly tell the 456 off in COE and thinking that would somehow work, i’m paraphrasing it terribly here but basically: jack constantly fails to realise that he’s not in a doctor who story.

one of the fundamental aspects of jacks character is that he is constantly trying (and failing) to emulate the doctor and this often fails for two reasons:

- that he exists in the torchwood universe which is more brutal, unforgiving and less steeped in plot armour than the dr who universe which means that anyone is fair game for gruesome and random death (yes they’re the same universe but the stakes are different because of IRL intended audiences and rating differences). thus, when he attempts the doctoresque tactic of standing his ground and just telling the villain ‘no’ it results in his lover dying in his arms
- reason 2 is that jack shares the doctor’s arrogance and selfishness but lacks a lot of his morality (jack is broadly moral but inarguably less so than the doctor) so what you end up with is someone who basically has all the bad bits of the doctor’s character and fewer of the good. he endangers his team knowing the stakes aren’t the same for him because he is immortal (something that both he and the doctor verbalised about themselves) but the difference is that the torchwood universe leads to much more concrete and tragic consequences for this selfishness than the doctor who universe, within which companion deaths are always retconned or softened somehow

[u/Rock-Nutter666]

I absolutely HATE Ianto’s death! I can still remember sobbing my little eleven year old heart out watching that scene for the first time when it aired on the 9th of July 2009. I was allowed to stay up late on a school week to watch the whole series. I went to my parents and sister still crying about it when the episode ended. I definitely went to bed upset that night. I cried again when I watched the series to review it for an essay for GCSE English in year 10. (I got a B. Which was the only decent grade I got for those essays.) I also had to bend the rules a little bit to be able to rent the DVD from the public library at school. It was a 15 and I was still 14.

I haven’t watched the show in ages so I’m really struggling to place the transphobic line you’re talking about. What episode is it from??

[u/AJthebluemarker → u/Rock-Nutter666]

S1E7

[u/Rock-Nutter666 → u/AJthebluemarker]

Oh okay. Thanks for telling me.

[u/JeSuisGourde]

Re: the transphobic throwaway. The writer for that specific episode never wrote anything for Torchwood before or since. I'm pretty sure it was just a new hire writer unaware of Jack being characterised as sexually non-discriminating and generally accepting of any and all identities and creatures. In the 2000s I think a lot of people just weren't thinking about transphobia as an issue (not as in it was good but just like it wasn't even on their radar) so I wouldn't be surprised if the shitty transphobia just wasn't even caught in edits and reviews. It's a terrible line, it's just stupid bad writing that makes absolutely no sense. Jack would never say that imo and honestly a lot of the episode is poorly written and oddly structured. It's frustrating too because it's so nice to have a Tosh-centric ep and yet it's marred by stupid dialogue and that transphobic bullshit.

Re: Ianto's death, I've written a whole thing about it. I'll just copy/paste it here, though, so you don't necessarily have to go over to tumblr to read it:

I fully understand why people were so upset that Ianto died in Children Of Earth and that Jack didn’t tell him he loved him back and that he basically died for nothing but I think it makes so so so much sense on multiple levels.

On the level of Jack and Ianto’s relationship, it makes perfect sense. From the start of the Children Of Earth series, Jack rebuffs every single one of Ianto’s attempts to define their relationship, to clarify what they are to each other, to learn more about him. Even though their relationship seems to have advanced further than it was in series 2, Ianto’s attempts to get Jack to open up emotionally fall flat or get rejected for multiple reasons. And then we’re introduced to Alice, who illustrates what happens to people who survive relationships with Jack. And it was established long before Children Of Earth that Jack is terrible at dealing with death, at admitting defeat. Of course he can’t tell Ianto he loves him, even if he does, because that would mean admitting losing him, and because (Jack thinks) letting him in that way would only make the loss hurt more. Of course, it hurts anyway. That's the tragedy of it.

On the level of the rest of the children of earth storyline, it perfectly lines up with the rest of the plot. Jack sacrifices twelve children to the 456 so that 1-2% of the human race will not be killed in 1965, and assumes it’s over. But it turns out the sacrifice is for nothing because they come back in 2009 and threaten to either take 10% of the worlds children, or the entire human race. Jack goes to Thames House with Ianto and they threaten the 456, who then release the virus that kills Ianto and everyone in Thames House. A sacrifice which, for Jack and Alice, is basically for nothing because then Stephen (who is innocent, and cannot consent to the risk of Torchwood the way Ianto did) is sacrificed anyway, and the world itself might be saved but they have to live with that grief and Jack must live with all that guilt.

I just think it fits so well as a parallel. An example of the uselessness of reckless action or reckless sacrifice, but also such a good example of what Jack has had to live with for over a hundred years. People in power forcing him to do their bidding or for him to act rashly because he can see no other option, and he’s forced to do it because he can’t die or be otherwise damaged, but the people he loves can, and that’s far more frightening. Jack will easily put himself in harm’s way because he can come back. But those he cares about can’t, and people in charge know that, and use it to turn him into a pawn, into someone panic-stricken and reckless and desperate to do whatever it takes, or into someone who cannot say no because he knows that no one else will say yes. Jack is feeling helpless because he lost Ianto in such a stupid power play and he had no way to stop it, and now the government can hold his grief over him AND hold his family hostage.

And that’s the entire thing about Children Of Earth. Ianto’s death is caused by a Jack who is panic-stricken and reckless, who charges in guns blazing because half the time that works and because he’s scared for Alice and Stephen and also the world. Stephen’s death is cause by governments, powerful people, forcing Jack’s hand by threatening those he loves and then forcing him to realise that no one else is going to sacrifice their single child to save millions of others and he has to be the one to do it, because he’s the only one they can threaten in that way. even though he’s the only one who will live forever with the guilt, literally forever, rather than living one lifetime and then dying.

Jack being overwhelmed with grief and sacrificing someone else despite the pain in order to save the world was already established in series 1 with Small Worlds. I wrote a whole long tumblr post too about the parallels between Jack's reaction to Estelle's death and subsequent sacrifice of Jasmine and Jack's reaction to Ianto's death and sacrifice of Stephen.

[u/AJthebluemarker → u/JeSuisGourde]

yes, all that makes sense. It's just still shit to lose 3/5 of the main characters in near rapid succession, y'know? Not exactly "bury your gays", but it went from Cool Adult Action Show to just an endurance trial for Jack and seeing just how he continues to lose people one after the other after the other, makes it a tad difficult to continue watching, if that makes sense 

[u/JeSuisGourde → u/AJthebluemarker]

I get you! I mean, there was a whole years-long campaign to bring Ianto back and a shrine and all this other stuff so you're obviously not alone in the feeling.

I've also always wondered if part of it was frustration on RTD's part. Gwen was written to be the audience proxy, to be the one the audience roots for and likes because they're supposed to see themselves in her, she's supposed to be the Everyman that people can identify with and connect with. But partly because of misogyny and partly because of some poor writing choices, people connected with and loved Ianto more. (I have a whole post too about why Ianto is the fan favourite. I think about this stuff a lot lol.) So I've always wondered if Ianto's death was partly RTD (consciously or unconsciously) kinda going "You've latched onto the wrong guy so I'm just going to get rid of him to restore what I think is the right balance of character connection."

[u/Liam_theman2099]

As a straight guy, I just consider the transphobic line bad writing. I STILL wanna know how Jack got pregnant. Was he on a different planet? Did he get drunk and do it with some random alien? I feel like it’d be funnier that Gwen found out and after a lot of convincing, Jack gives in and whispers into her ear and Gwen says, “I was wrong after all.”

[u/NukeL3AR]

That's the point of his death. Jack forgets that he's just a breakable human, and in his cockiness, he makes a mistake, and loses Ianto in the process. It's occupational hazard. Sometimes people who work at Torchwood just die, and that's life. It perfectly fits the themes of nihilism sprinkled through the entire show. Deaths don't have to be heroic to be impactful, I don't think it would've fit at all for Ianto to have some big sacrifice moment that ties everything up in a neat little bow; it would've cheapened the character and the moment, and not been as impactful. The suddenness of the death is what makes it work and what carries the tone of the whole last episode, the hopelessness of the situation punctuated by the silence in the place of where Ianto should be. It's perfect. Jack thought he had it in the bag, and then everything crumbles under him because he overestimated his abilities and underestimated the 456. And Ianto paid the price.

[u/ju3tte → u/NukeL3AR]

yeaaah it would not have the emotional impact its had on fans if it was a regular "heroic sacrifice" kind of thing. i see many people claim it was badly written or something but its often more just them being upset that their fave character died. theres other shows with genuinely unnecessary character deaths and there arent posts of ppl saying theyre scared of rewatching every month or so unlike what i see with COE lol

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

I don't think anyone's ever getting over Ianto. I mean, we literally built a memorial shrine for him, a fictional character, after they killed him off, that says a lot! But yeah, it was pretty dumb. If they were so set on killing him off, they could have at least given him as heroic a death as possible. Ianto's the type to go out fighting, they should have had that in there. Also, Jack's the type to force his team mates to stay back while he handles the things that can easily kill them but not him, especially after losing Owen and Tosh. It makes no sense that Jack wouldn't make sure both Gwen and Ianto were incapable of coming with him, but still capable of helping in other ways.

As for the second point, I had to be reminded of what that was, so thanks for including the other post with the screenshot. I think I'd purposely erased that bit from my memory. It's definitely massively out of character for Jack to care about someone being trans, deadname and misgender a trans person, and then equate being trans with bringing in a hostile alien to the Hub. I could maybe see something like that from Owen, if it was written as ignorance on his part, and even that's a pretty massive stretch, to be honest. But Jack? The omnisexual who doesn't care about gender or species? The man who admitted in the very first episode of Torchwood that he'd been pregnant once? Yeah, paired with the fact he never wanted to do it again, but still, Jack had been pregnant once! We got zero context, but why would THAT guy have an issue with being trans? This is literally the show that gave us canonical, off-screen mpreg! And he was in love with the Doctor, who went on to regenerate into a woman, too. Sure, that part hadn't happened yet, it's long off, this was still David's run as the Doctor, but still, I think it counts.

Someone on that other post mentioned they did something similar in Doctor Who, took me a moment to remember the episode. Apparently, it was the same writer, but the context is entirely different and it works in DW. It's the episode with Madame De Pompadour, the Doctor brings back a horse, and we learn he can speak horse, and he says the horse insists his name is Susan and wants his choice to be respected. I don't think it was a trans thing, though, just the horse choosing its own name, and perhaps Susan being a different type of name in horse culture. Or translated. Because it's not the only time they did this on DW. As a joke, they also had us learn that the Doctor speaks baby, and specifically with Craig's son Alfie, the whole 'his name is Stormageddon' thing. They do it seriously, too, pointing out names are different in different languages. When Amy has her baby, she names her Melody Pond. There's a soldier who sews something for the baby with her name on it, but her language doesn't use the words melody or pond, they use the words song and river. So, Melody Pond is translated as Song River, which became River Song, because it's one name on each side.

Regardless of the intent of the horse named Susan, it works, because it's unexpected and funny and NOT tied to the horse's actual gender. The horse insists its name is Susan, it doesn't insist it's a boy OR a girl. That we know of, who knows what it actually told the Doctor?

That's where the 'joke' fails in Torchwood. It's tied completely with being trans, they use a character who wouldn't see a single issue with that, and equate it to something bad happening. It's both transphobic and massively out of character, and didn't work any more back then than it does now. It isn't something that aged badly, it's something that was always bad and I'm surprised made it into the final episode without being cut or re-written.

[u/Rock-Nutter666 → u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

I thought the horse The Doctor found in Girl In The Fireplace was called Arthur?? Isn’t it the horse in A Town Called Mercy called Susan??

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal → u/Rock-Nutter666]

It is, that was my mistake. I'd recently re-watched A Girl in the Fireplace, recent enough to remember the horse but long enough to forget the name, but hadn't hit A Town Called Mercy on my re-watch yet, so I connected the joke to the horse I remembered the Doctor talking to, not the one that was actually called Susan.

Makes it even funnier, though, the Doctor names the first horse for Rose and Mickey, who would have been at least somewhat aware of things like that. The second horse, however, is back in the past, long before people would have been aware of this stuff, he's literally telling a long dead cowboy that his male horse has a girl name, a cowboy who can shoot him if he felt like it. Those Western townspeople may have gotten a little used to having aliens around, but I bet that guy was still super confused at the Doctor being able to understand his horse and naming him Susan, which doesn't sound remotely like Joshua.

[u/ju3tte → u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

idk i think ianto having kind of a stupid avoidable death is very much the point. torchwood is always thrown into danger and he has such a strong loyalty to the organisation and the idea of protecting the world that he dies just for wanting to come play the hero with jack in a direct confrontation instead of staying behind with gwen or rhys. it also really adds to that feeling of hopelessness that pushes jack to sacrifice steven

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal → u/ju3tte]

Yeah, that was probably their reasoning. I just don't think they pulled it off. I could see it with Gwen, who could be somewhat impulsive, but not Ianto. I could even see it with Rhys, if he thought his actions could save Gwen. Ianto just doesn't work, he's too loyal to Jack specifically, he'd do as ordered, even if he didn't like it, and find some other way to help. It would have worked better, perhaps, if Ianto had been forced to be there, to be used against Jack, instead of choosing to be there. Or if he at least got to go out heroically, while still being an avoidable death. Something heroic that Jack could easily have done, but it's quicker if Ianto does it while Jack does something else, increasing their odds just a little bit, but not in a tipping the scales way.

[u/AJthebluemarker → u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

Yeah man, exactly! The horse and baby bits are funny because they're chill and unserious, the Jack thing might as well have been a line that one of the secretly transphobic scriptwriters snuck in last-minute, 'cause I refuse to believe a whole team read that and went "yeah that makes sense for a 51st century omnisexual man who has experienced pregnancy to say"

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal → u/AJthebluemarker]

Yeah, there's no way. DW did it right, kept it light and funny. It's possible the horse named Susan was originally transphobic, given it's the same writer, but it was caught and re-written into an actual joke. Torchwood was even more open and accepting than DW, though, had to be with Jack as the main character, and I really can't understand how they missed how bad this bit was. It had to be last minute or I can't see why it wasn't dropped or changed.

Oh, by the way, you should give Miracle Day a chance, it's not bad. Definitely different, given only Jack and Gwen are left of the team and it's half American, but it's still a good season. Maybe take a break to let the loss of Ianto sink in and not judge MD by the previous seasons and characters, I did, but I think it's still worth the watch.

[u/Sundwach]

I'm so tired of the miracle day hate, watch it before you form an opinion on it

[u/Ok_Progress_974 → u/Sundwach]

I really enjoy miracle day. Its different and repetitive in places but its not as bad as people say

[u/AJthebluemarker → u/Sundwach]

oh, I didn't mean it as hate at all. I watched the finale a week after Day Four because I wasn't sure if I was gonna continue at all after Ianto's death. I will probably watch Miracle Day sooner or later, just gotta brace my head for the fact that the beautiful Welsh vowels won't be there anymore 

[u/Horrible_Ives]

Which episode are you referring to re your second point?

[u/AJthebluemarker → u/Horrible_Ives]

S1E7 iirc. This post talks about it too: https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/pOGRcq8dV9