I made a post asking why FTL Luffy was dubious and alot of people said Luffy isn't FTL because he only dodged the laser due to observation haki, however, Luffy himself calls Kaido too fast even for future sight, which would make Kaido and by proxy Luffy FTL, since he keeps up with him

Gazelle man doesn't work as a debunk for 2 reason. 1. Travel speed ≠ combat speed 2. There is consistent scaling of characters speeds above it since pre ts such as dodging lightning from eneru and light from kizaru. As powerscalers we have to look at feats that make the most narratively logical/consistent sense if anything Gazelle man is more of an outlier in the story than ftl luffy

First off, I'll scale Goku.

P1: For a realm to contain non intersecting infinite spaces of a given dimension R, it must possess a greater scope (R+1 coordinates). <-- Edited for better clarification

P2: We know that the living world is a 4D realm, since it posseses 3 sapatial dimensions + time. The scan I provided states that it contains infinite galaxies, which would require it to be infinite in size. <-- Edited this segment because I forgot to revise this argument before posting

P3: This scan states that Heaven is as vast as the world of the living. Consequently, it is also infinite 4D.

C: Therefore, the macrocosm must be a 5D structure, given that it contains non intersecting parallel infinite spaces, which requires an extra dimensional axis. <-- Edited for better clarification

In the battle of gods arc, the clash between Goku and Beerus was threatening to destroy the entirety of Universe 7 (macrocosm). This would make Goku Low complex multiversal or 5D in terms of attack potency. Now let's talk about his speed.

We know that physical stats in Dragon Ball directly scale with ki. An example of this is the Kaioken, a technique that multiplies the user's Ki, which leads to an increase of their stats comparable to their increase in Ki. Where I'm trying to get at is that Goku's speed directly scales to the shockwaves released during his fight with Beerus. Those shockwaves were capable of traveling through the entire macrocosm in a finite amount of time, which would guarantee Goku infinite speed scaling.

Now I'll explain why Saitama does not beat him.

I'll keep it simple. Saitama has no feats that put him anywhere close to 4D and higher, which makes it so his exponential growth becomes a nonfactor against Goku. Why's that, you may ask? Well, Saitama's growth allows him to increase his own strength infinitely. But no matter how much you add to a number, it will never reach infinity. So Saitama cannot achieve the same level of power as Goku, a being that is infinitely greater than himself.

Conclusion: Goku no diffs bumtama + his verse

Having a hard time debunking this being outer right now.

I'll keep it short. Bumtama is a base metal Sonic victim and gets no diffed by him. Bumtama (from one retcon man) caps at finite 3D and is never beating any higher dimensional character. Metal Sonic at a low ball scales to low multiversal with infinite speed via scaling above Sonic and being stated to be Eggman's greatest invention

Saitama's only power (his exponential growth) is literally a non factor since a finite value can never reach infinity via exponential increase alone. Saitama gets one tapped

By the time One Punch Man anime released Goku was already Universe level, but it took Goku from Planetary tier to Universe tier 12 to 16 year, but for Saitama it took less than 8 months, but Empty Void Dimension cutting got retconned and still stuck back to galaxy.

When we clearly see it's more like grains of sand being cut in half and then amounting to something smaller than Ichigo's FOOT? Universes and planets scale to a foot now? I find that hard to believe. "But the rings the rings." It's an effect for them being cut in half as shown, not a literal depiction of Saturn guys. We clearly see the grains fall on the ground and then get stomped out. Presenting this as an actual feat is crazy to me.

Because while Whis is massively stronger than MUI Goku, the gap between 2-C (low multiverse) to 2-B (multiverse) is also massive.

Master Chief: Halo vs Astartes Space Marine: 40K.

Round 1: Chief is in MJOLNIR Gen 3 and has assault rifle and a pistol as his sidearm along with two frag grenades, Space Marine is Firstborn in standard armor and has a bolter (automatic) and a combat knife.

Round 2: Both are in same armor. Chief now has a spartan laser, energy sword, two frag grenades and two plasma grenades. Astartes has same kit from round 1.

Round 3: Same armor again. Both have same starting weaponry from round 2 but now the battlefield is a graveyard full of UNSC, Covenant, Space Marine and also assorted 40K weaponry,

Who wins each round? I'm more into Halo and don't know a ton about 40K, but I always see people say Space Marines are so much more powerful than Spartans. Now in general considering all types of Space Marines and the average Spartan, maybe that is true. But this is THE CHIEF, and I am putting him up against the most basic Astartes Marine. Even then, considering all the feats and canon of Chief, is he still truly inferior to one Astartes marine? I genuinely don't know.

Whenever I hear Goku in power scaling and in fights this moment right here is coveted as his strongest feat, him shaking the universe fighting Beerus and yet the more I look at the scene and actually think about it the feat is so stupid and doesn't make sense.

First: The biggest problem I have is that there should be others, this feat was about halfway into Gokus story and he has gotten multiple super forms and power increases since yet this moment doesn't have anything comparable to. Goku should be 10x, 100x, even 1000x stronger yet we never have anything like this

Second: This feat is so far removed from everything else. Goku was fighting on planets and was star level before this and was doing star level and galaxy level after. The power jump in this one scene is nowhere near anything that it should reasonably be.

Third: If he had this power why never use it at all. If he can tear apart the universe why not do it in any other fight, why not use it against Goku black, tournament of power, literally anywhere.

Fourth: This one is a minor one but if Goku is popping stars and shaking the universe then why is the planet not destroyed. I keep hearing goku can't breathe or move in space and destroying is pretty bad for him (I don't know if that 100% true) yet this never comes up in the series or in power scaling. EDIT: By that I mean the fact the characters can apparently destroy the universe yet fighting on a planet doesn't destroy it. And for those who say AP=/= DC this is literally shock waves from chimera clash it is a DC scale.

Final and my biggest argument: BEERUS IS RIGHT THERE. The whole time I am saying how this feat makes no sense for Goku yet for Beerus it's his entire M.O. People always take this feat and say that it was all Goku and it is his feat, when it makes no sense. Did the scene happen, YES, I'm not denying it but this was not just Goku. EDIT:Wow a lot of people seem to hate this one, not helping my horrible wording, what I'm trying to say is at most this feat can only half go to goku, he didn't do nothing the same way he didn't do all of it. My bad for terrible wording (mabye I should get flamed for not knowing how to read).

Anyway this is why I honestly don't believe this feat is a big fat lie. Feal free to make your argument on why I'm wrong and how I "can't read" but if you do let set some rules. 1:Make a point, explain why you think I am mistaken with logic. 2: Proved evidence on something I missed or something that disprove's my points (logic or sorce material). 3: Shutting me down just for trying to give my two cents or trying to spin it against other fandoms is not proper nor what I'm looking for, im look for discussion and reasoning.

STOP: OK FINAL EDIT, I F-D UP. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO RESPONDED, GENUINELY, BUT I'M AN IDIOT. ITS KI CONTROL, THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION IS KI CONTROL. I HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH AN IRL FRIEND AND THIS WAS THE RESULT. I WAS WRONG AND CONFIDENTLY AT THAT. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I SAW DRAGON BALL AND HAD APPARENTLY FROGOT A TON ON THE SHOW BUT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO REWATCH IT WHEN I WAS CONFUSED I DECIDED TO MAKE A POST ON THE INTERNET AND EMBARRASS MY SELF AND EVERYONE ELSE. I AM SORRY AND I AM GOING TO APOLOGIZE TO THEM AND REWATCH THE ENTIRETY OF BRAGON BALL. I WILL NOT BE RESPONDING TO THIS ANYMORE.

Mahoraga vs SCP-682

24 hour time limit to see who wins. If both of them neither neutralized or unconscious for 10 seconds, it’ll be considered as draw/tie.

If one of them successfully neutralized opponent, they’ll claim their victory.

Mahoraga: 2x stronger than formal Mahoraga because of sorcerer’s binding vow that risks one’s life. Sorcerer itself.

SCP-682: 1.5x stronger than formal 682. However, SCP-682 cannot be transformed into SCP-6820(Termination attempt).

Right let's get this out of the way first, Asriel definitely has the means to do it. He sits comfortably in the Uni-multi tier. Omega Flowey was able to rewrite reality on such a mass scale it was bordering Outversal ( I'm not saying he is, I personally scale him to Uni) and Asriel is stronger then Omega Flowey. Stats wise he's stated to have infinite attack and defense. Meaning he'd likely also be both invincible and immortal. There's also the fact that Asriel just erased a whole timeline and showed no signs of exhaustion ( Mind you a Zeno level feat, the strongest character in Dragon ball). And his main goal was literally to completely reset the whole timeline. Also Undertale magic affects the soul directly, so Goku's physical durability doesn't mean much here.

And even if Goku somehow found a way to erase or kill Asriel. He can still use the determination he had as Flowey, meaning he has all the options that Frisk has.

Also the " He lost to a child argument" doesn't work here. One that was an immortal child who straight up refused to die and has arguably some of the best haxs in gaming. But it's also canon that he was subconsciously holding back because he still thought Frisk was Chara. Had he not he would've erased them on the first attack, Goku won't have that going for him.

And that leads me to my last point, Goku's best option for winning would be to talk Asriel down. But it's Goku we're talking about, that's more of a Naruto solution then anything. And he doesn't have a personal connection to any of the souls in Asriel or Asriel himself, so that's off the table.

Now don't get me wrong would it be a hard fight for both sides? Hell yes, would it be entertaining? HELL YEAH death battle needs to get on this. But in the end I think Asriel can outlast Goku and put him down.

Literally all in Soifon's mind

So for example if you want to complain about wank or downplay for a character named bob
You should address where you scale bob
And what you consider wank or downplay
Like for example

Where i scale Bob:City level FTL

What i consider downplay:building Level Subsonic

What i consider wank:galaxy level MFTL+

Something like that

Infinity stones/Marvel Comics Earth 616 Continuity

DC comics Earth 0 Mainline Continuity

Did he cover the universe?

John Cena at his peak with Superman's powers vs Hulk Hogan at his peak with the Hulk's powers. Who wins, the champion of the Make-A-Wish kids or the Real American who fights for what's white?

Yes This is Not Rage Bait: Lucius Zogratis Dwarfs Beerus and Would Utterly Dawg and Erase Him in a Fight
Before you immediately dismiss this as a massive high ball or a standard meme stance.

You have to look at the objective facts of Tabata's power system, the raw Japanese text, and the explicit geometric laws of dimensional tiering.

Before I even get into this I’m going to debunk this notion.

“Well Beerus destroys planets and celestial bodies but Lucius never does that”

Demanding that a character physically blow up a planet or explicitly clear a galaxy to prove their "physical stats" is an arbitrary double standard.

In cross verse matchups, the qualitative scale of a space time architecture entirely overrides standard 3D environmental destruction.

FOR EXAMPLE

If I physically transcend to the 5th dimension. I am not weaker than a planet buster just because I never destroy planets. Planets are 3D concepts higher dimensional characters with qualitative transcendence would view those 3 concepts as fictional and flat. I would not be weaker than the planet buster it would be the opposite. I would be on an inaccessible greater level.

I already know I'm going to get absolutely grilled in the comments for this, and honestly, I have accepted my death. But no matter how hot the replies get, it's not going to change my mind because the receipts don't lie.

Just to lay down the ground rules upfront:

I will only be addressing people who actually want to engage in good faith. If you bring scans, system laws, and actual structured arguments, I am more than happy to debate you. Anyone who shows up in bad faith with generic insults, personal attacks, or standard lazy lowballing gets blocked instantly.

I am not wasting my energy on toxic noise the thread is for real analysis.

Now here is my logic and reasoning for why Lucius utterly negs Beerus.

1. The Multi+ Cosmology Black Clover has via Dorothy’s Cosmos

The common claim that Black Clover lacks grand cosmic scale is completely dismantled by the literal physics of Dorothy Unsworth's Dream Magic. Shueisha’s official guidebook defines Glamour World using absolute raw print layers: “A space isolated from the outside world that stretches infinitely.”
Inside this isolated 4D container, Dorothy possesses a concrete, on panel creation feat of physically materializing and sustaining a complete structural representation corresponding to the entire Living World including its own active cosmos, stars, and universal spacetime parameters.

These constructs carry pure physical materiality with real mass and molecular density, verified by anime canon when Luck executes localized chemical electrolysis to fracture her generated water into physical gases. Under the official guidelines for Creation Magic, "Maintaining the object’s shape requires highly advanced control of magical power." Dorothy is actively fueling an entire infinite material cosmos with her raw Magic Power.

To scale the absolute volume of this container, look at the Cross Dimensional Sensory Chain. Characters like Henry and Lumiere establish a clear Low Multiversal perception baseline by seamlessly sensing magical energy across completely separate, temporally disconnected dimensions (like tracking signatures inside the isolated Shadow Palace from the outside universe). Even Finral can detect infinite amounts of mana we see this with Patri.

An amplified low multiversal radar still failed to find its boundaries. When Luck Voltia enters Glamour World, his amplified, low multiversal radar still fails to find its boundaries, explicitly logging the observation: “There’s no border. It’s endless.”

And Reeve the creator reaffirms the impossible is possible in glamour world.

Because a multi spacetime tracking baseline cannot locate a structural edge, the physical scale of the realm hard locks straight to Multi+ parameters.

Yami deploys Dimension Slash: Equinox to directly engage with, cleanly cut through, and completely dissolve this infinite, cosmos packed container from the inside out. His active combat output completely overclasped a Multi+ space, confirming genuine AP.

Shueisha's official promotional logs and Jump databook profiles permanently codify that Yami's blade "is so strong it transcends dimensions."

1. Lucius Multiversal +Mana Zone + Dwarfing the cast

The narrative progression systematically builds an exponential scaling gap above this early saga baseline. Dorothy explicitly states that Glamour World is not strong enough to contain the high ranking devils, meaning an entity of Zagred’s tier carries the passive magical magnitude to completely fracture her infinite dimension from within. Lucius dwarfs Yami's dimension slash and would utterly erase Glamour World with his mere aura.

By the time of the final war, Lucius has systematically absorbed 100% of a fully manifested Lucifero's multiversal energy reservoir, stacked the high tier spatial parameters of Beelzebub's Space Magic onto his frame, and fused his expanded Magic Power with his supreme Time Magic attribute. His future sight operates under a concrete Many-Worlds framework, tracking "the future of all possibilities" and "infinite possibilities" across parallel, concurrent timeline universes (Sekai).
Crucially, his foresight is not restricted to the human plane.

Because his ultimate design required manipulating the gates of the underworld and the isolated gateway of the Shadow Palace to align perfectly with his parameters, Lucius explicitly demonstrates the capability to track and foresee the separate parallel futures of the Underworld itself. He is actively processing the multiversal downstream paths of Hell across an infinite network of realized continuums.

The reason this translates into a massive, force backed AP pool in the present comes down to the core territorial laws of the verse. Future sight is bound to the active deployment of a Mana Zone: “Wizard King Julius uses a combination of Mana Zone and time acceleration... to read the flow of the mana of the future.”

Under the absolute system rules of the verse, Mana Zone explicitly dictates

"DOMINATE THE SPACE WITH NATURE’S MANA! Within that territory, you can discharge more mana than you personally have, from any direction!!"

Lucius isn't just looking through an abstract psychic window. For his foresight to actively read, track, and navigate the future flow of environmental mana across an infinite network of realized timeline universes simultaneously, his active Mana Zone territory is physically manufacturing a massive, overlapping macrostructure that encloses that entire infinite multiverse.

Under the environmental absorption law( mana zone amps the user), he is actively drawing from, stacking, and channeling the natural ambient mana of that entire enclosed multiversal network directly into his own physical vessel, hard conforming base Lucius solidly into unbound Multi+ (Tier 2-A) parameters.

The end of series revelation that alien civilizations and extraterrestrial worlds explicitly exist hard locks the fact that the setting's main universe natively contains a vast cosmic ecosystem.

Because a timeline is a complete 4 dimensional container, every single branching timeline Lucius's Mana Zone encloses contains that exact same full cosmic architecture. Saving outer space as a major revelation at the very end proves that visually showing it during the final war would have completely ruined the plot mystery and broken the flow of the storytelling.

So no I don’t wanna hear “but we didn’t see them showing his mana zone extending to outer space and to alien planets”.

This is a battle shonen. Imagine how that breaks the tone.

1. Beerus Scales to a Finite Macrocosm

In direct contrast, Beerus scales to a definitive Low Multi to standard Multi baseline. His highest end tiering is anchored strictly to the Dragon Ball Macrocosms, which is a collection of a finite number of separate, interconnected 4D spacetime continua (the Living World, the Other World, Hell, etc.). No matter how high he upscales from Goku, a character destroying or threatening a finite collection of 4D macro structures using pure physical energy can never bridge the gap to a character infinitely stronger on the same dimensional scale. Lucius works on a completely higher, unbound Multi+ tier that powercliffs finite multiversal characters like Beerus.

1. My next claim is that Lucius Wields the Dictational Concept Of Time

Primordial Dark Gods( Supreme Devils) & Wielding the Dictational Concept of Time

To understand why Beerus stands absolutely zero chance, you have to look at the exact conceptual structure of Devil Magic established in Black Clover. Supreme Devils do not simply wield elemental traits they function as primordial "Dark Gods" that author and dictate the abstract concepts of reality as universal laws.

Look at the rules of the verse and tell me that I’m wrong:

Megicula did not just create Curse Magic she created all curses across
the verse , including the Curse of Weg which is a fundamental, cosmic rule governing how Negative Mana alters human souls of the verse. She authored the dictational concept of curses.

Lucifero holds the exact same primordial authority, utilizing Dark God's Pressure Craft born directly from the foundation of his soul to rule over the concept of Gravity.

By this exact same cosmic blueprint, the remaining Devil Kings Beelzebub and Astaroth literally created and authored the concepts of Space and Time across the cosmology.

Because Devils are physically formed from Negative Mana, their entire existence is hard locked to the conceptual tier. Exposure to this energy places mages in the Arcane Stage, which is explicitly defined as the ability to manipulate and interact with concepts (such as Vanessa's Fate Manipulation being an Arcane concept). Since Lucius was born a Devil Host, his native Soul Magic has always been an Arcane tier ability capable of overriding the abstract concept of a soul's identity.

When Overlord Lucius systematically consumed the hearts of the Supreme Devils, he didn't just acquire "Time Magic" or "Gravity Magic" as handy attributes he physically absorbed the literal Dark Gods who created and dictate the concepts of Time, Space, and Gravity across the verse.

Lucius literally wields the dictational concept of time itself as a sovereign law of reality. His magical reserves do not interact with the mere physical or molecular state of an environment; he commands the abstract principles of cause and effect across the multitimeline grid.

Beerus stands absolutely zero chance against this because he possesses zero conceptual tier layer defenses. Beerus moves entirely within the dictated flow of time. He moves from point A to point B linearly, punches linearly, and waits for a linear frame to pass. Beerus has no native mechanism to resist or parry an opponent who holds the primordial authority to rewrite the underlying rules of the time dimension itself.

Lucius can project omnidirectional temporal spheres or global fields that drop the local passage of time to an absolute net-zero value. It conceptually freezes the abstract property of cause and effect within those spatial coordinates, locking Beerus's physical velocity, reflexes, and internal energy flow into a static statue.

Lucius manipulates the aging vector of anything his magic touches. He can accelerate the temporal progression of a targeted coordinate to push an entity straight to the end of its natural lifespan. When applied defensively, oncoming energy blasts instantly exhaust their duration, causing them to wither and dissolve into nothingness before making contact. When applied offensively, it causes an organic vessel's physical limbs and cell systems to instantly rot into dust.

Absorbed from Lucifero, Lucius can manifest a gravitational output so intensely compressed that it physically suppresses abstract concepts like Fate. Under this supreme gravity, even Fate itself is completely forced down and neutralized.

He can use Permeation Magic to make his physical and spiritual container completely phase through matter and energy on a zero friction budget. Hakai must physically make contact with a target's envelope to execute erasure Lucius can seamlessly phase right through the vector, rendering Beerus’s god level deletion completely useless.

1. The SPEED GAP AND HAX GAP

There is a massive, un bridgeable speed gap between these two characters.

Infinite to Inaccessible Speed Thresholds: Beerus has massive travel and reaction speed metrics, but he is completely bound to standard linear movement over 3D physical coordinates and linear time frames. He cannot move if time itself is not running. Black Clover's high tiers permanently powercliff this. During the Elf Saga, Yami’s Dimension Slash crosses and cuts through Dorothy’s borderless, infinite sized cosmos in a finite moment a feat requiring a baseline of Infinite Speed that Elf Saga characters could actively react to.

The verse scales cleanly into Inaccessible Speed parameters across multiple canon formats. In the light novel, Yami's Dimension Slash maintains its own kinetic momentum and physically moves through Julius's Chrono Stasis zone while time is explicitly stopped and magic is shut off. This scales to the final war in Chapter 356, where Yuno's Never Never Land creates a domain where "Time does not pass."

Despite the total absence of temporal progression, Overlord Lucius and his clones seamlessly statue the domain, moving, parrying, and executing offensive spells while the concept of time is dead. Because Lucius is attacking from a temporal coordinate that doesn't exist on a standard linear clock, his strikes register as Inaccessible to Immeasurable Speed, completely blitzing Beerus before his linear timeline can progress a single frame.

Beerus’s durability protects him from physical attacks, but he has zero spiritual resistance to direct soul restructuring. Lucius targets a being’s core spiritual baseline directly, grafting purified devil power straight onto their souls.

This Soul Magic completely overwrites the target's memories, mind, and godly identity, instantly reformating the God of Destruction into a purified servant vessel Paladin Beerus.

Beerus is a solo fighter who relies on tracking a singular target coordinate. Lucius breaks his action economy by saturating the field with an army of identical Overlord clones, each commanding 100% access to his complete pool of attributes (Time, Soul, Gravity, and Space Magic). While Beerus is occupied parrying bone armor shields or dodging black hole singularities, a hidden clone can leverage Absolute Stealth and Sensory Erasure to completely wipe its presence from divine tracking networks, manifest behind his blind spot invisibly, and execute a fatal soul touch.

The material impact of his output is thoroughly proven in Chapter 361 when Yuno deploys Never Never Land. Yuno is forced to generate an active, equal and opposite temporal change to physically counteract, halt, and completely negate Lucius's passive global time acceleration vectors. It is a direct clashing matrix of real, competing magical volumes derived straight from the multiversal footprint Lucius's Mana Zone encompasses.

1. My Steel Man To You All

Let's say for a moment that I’m a total dumbass who is wildly wanking Lucius's AP and he’s not actually infinite multiversal or whatever. Cool.

Let's discard the Tier 2-A stats completely for a second. There is still a massive, completely insurmountable hax and speed gap between the two that makes a raw power difference entirely irrelevant.

What is stopping Lucius from speed blitzing Beerus and hax stomping him off rip?

Think of this like Yoriichi vs. Muzan from Demon Slayer. If Muzan touches Yoriichi even once with his attacks, Yoriichi dies instantly because of the sheer physical power and biological toxicity. Muzan vastly outclasses him in raw durability, physical destruction, and raw output. But what actually happened in the story? Yoriichi completely statued him. He speed blitzed Muzan so fast that Muzan couldn't even process what happened, slicing through him before he could move a muscle.

In this exact instance, even if we lowball Lucius's physical durability or AP to ordinary levels, the speed and temporal mechanics ensure Beerus is completely frozen in place. Lucius seamlessly avoids 100% of Beerus’s attacks, statues him completely via Inaccessible to Immeasurable non linear speed navigation, and either temporally erases him off rip, loops his existence into a Chrono Stasis prison, or touches him once to rewrite his soul code into a Paladin. Lucius's victory is completely insulated from Beerus being "stronger" because Beerus will never live to see a timeline where he is allowed to throw a punch.

Be absolutely dead ass with yourselves. If we equalized stats you all would argue Lucius would win because of his hax. So by proving he’s faster and can use his hax Beerus inherently uses.

I love Beerus, he's my goat. I touched dragon ball light years before black clover.

but the showings do not lie. Lucius completely gaps him out, hax stomps him, and slams hard.
\#change my mind

\#wifethat

\#Imwylin????

Edit: credit to [u/Haschbrownn](u/Haschbrownn) for some of the scans.

Round 1: Vs the chimp in this video Travis the Chimp full 911 call. (Viewer Discretion is advised). - YouTube (content warning)

Round 2: Vs an alligator.

Round 3: Vs a Lion.

Round 4: Vs a hippo.

Round 5: He has to fight a polar bear.

Round 6: If he lost any of the prior rounds, if he is given pepper spray to spray them prior to going in for the attack, how much does this help him?

Round 7: How does it change if he has a police tazer instead and a small but normal knife.

Question: Is the WASP or a spear better for these rounds?

Hajun (with active tumor) vs pre retcon beyonder

If you disagree, please DON’T SIT THERE CRYING. Just refute it, line by line.

Goku (canon) scale:

(I): All contradictions are false in all possible worlds. 

(II): Anything that’s conceivable, imaginable, and non-contradictory is logically possible.

(III): Classical logic is defined as a set of principles and methods of inference or valid reasoning.

(IV): Principle of Sufficient Reasoning (PSR) is tautological and is true in all interpretations.

C1: Given the prior data, all of this infers Classical Logic being true.

(V): Any abstraction that’s aspatial and atemporal and beyond dimensions would have qualitative Outerversal existence level. 

(VI): Every configuration of spatiotemporality would have to always compose space and time and there is no instance where one can exist without the other that as they are a duality.

(VII): If it is the case that there is no concept of time within the Otherworld then no concept of space must also follow to not exist within the Otherworld. 

(VIII): If the Otherworld transcends dimensions then it can’t be 0D, and must be beyond dimensionality as its abstract edifice. 

(IX): Anything that has Outerversal existence would have qualitatively superior to all dimensionality lacking the concept of space and time and anything that’s has Outerversal Attack Potency can affect all dimensionality significantly. 

(X): It is the case that the Otherworld is abstract and transcends dimensions without contradictions and it’s consistent in the narrative given the data.

C2: The Otherworld has Outerversal existence.

(XI): Goku’s clash with Beerus was able to shake the entirety of the Universe 7 Macrocosm which would include the Otherworld. 

(XII): If the collision of two punches has been able to affect Universal quantification of everything in the timeline then one of the punches would be equivalent to the timeline. 

(XIII): Since one of the punches is going to be equivalent to the universe then the Attack Potency must be affective to the timeline.

C3: Goku is Outerversal. 

I feel like this sub had majority of it's member larping

out of an debate,argument etc etc just cuz they're too lazy to open some comprehension.

Yes I know some materials were shitty long especially comics. But does that mean you can just

talk trash or use mistranslation,headcanons and misinterpretation to get the characters close of your

desires

Pls at least read something and not rely purely of flashy visuals!