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u/Frost_moss 3d ago
Instead we allow the ultra rich and clinically insane work to outright replace us and work towards our extinction. Humanity could have been more. Instead it chose to be nothing.
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u/quivering_palm 3d ago edited 3d ago
Nah, the evolution framing never made much sense and falls apart pretty easily if you think about it. PuppetMaster is just horny for the Major. And, tbh, I think it is even better - this shows that PM is really "alive" and has its own wants\needs that are not driven by pure calculation. It even comes up with the self-justification for these wants\needs just like humans, lol.
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u/Capraos 3d ago
Counter argument: He made it clear that he was not able to out maneuver his creators. They created him, they knew the intracies of his programming, thus why they were able to lead him into a trap.
In the newest anime/in the Manga, he specifies that even if he were to perfectly replicate, staying the same stagnates his existence and makes him unable to adapt to dangers (viruses/attacks that target design flaws). Where if he tried to make changes it's just as likely he would come into conflict with himself as those changes accrue (when dealing with millions of copies those changes can turn into drastically different ideas/courses of actions).
His solution, merge with a another. The old copy dies, the new copy lives with passed on traits. So yes, he was horny for the Major, but his logic about trying to maintain oneself indefinitely being fundamentally flawed was not wrong.
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u/quivering_palm 3d ago edited 3d ago
staying the same stagnates his existence and makes him unable to adapt to dangers (viruses/attacks that target design flaws)
Merger does not help with that though - it went from design A to design B, so now the viruses that target design B are deadly for it, not the viruses that target design A. Plus doesn't it claim that it was born from the "sea of information", i.e. Puppet Master is a digital form of life, so how come it is unable to change its architecture? I mean, it can produce copies - it mentions that in both movie and new anime - so it can make a copy, induce architectural changes into it and produce new designs. It can even try to mimic biological mutations by introducing stochastic parameters / layers / whatever into the architecture. There is also an underlying issue with merging - if Puppet Master's lineage can only propagate that way, then its successful lineage will eventually lead to... the monoculture it rages against, because merger is A + B -> C = reduction of diversity as A and B are consumed in the process.
He made it clear that he was not able to out maneuver his creators. They created him, they knew the intracies of his programming, thus why they were able to lead him into a trap.
I think Puppet Master just wasn't able to evade the reactive barriers\firewall of Section 6. At least that what it said in the movie.
Where if he tried to make changes it's just as likely he would come into conflict with himself as those changes accrue (when dealing with millions of copies those changes can turn into drastically different ideas/courses of actions).
If I remember correctly, it actually argued for the opposite (in the 2026 anime at least) - that the copies would eventually meet and merge into the same being, which, admittedly, makes less sense. If your interpretation is correct, then it actually confirms that the "biological evolution" language PM used was just fluff, because this is essentially the mechanism of selection. So, for an evolutionary-driven PM that should be a bonus.
So yes, he was horny for the Major, but his logic about trying to maintain oneself indefinitely being fundamentally flawed was not wrong.
I agree with the argument against stagnation, just pointing out that PM's solution (you can only change if you radically transform your fundamental structure and resisting that limits you) is not the only possible one, despite it trying to represent it that way. The argument against that exists in the very data it should be able to ingest from the Net: human technological progress shows how despite not being able to fundamentally alter our biology naturally, we came up with solutions against the threats to our existence - weapons, antibiotics, vaccines, etc. This is also an evolutionary byproduct: our advanced brains allowed us to invent things that mitigate our flaws.
TL;DR: I think that the evolutionary language was mostly an ad-hoc rationalization by the Puppet Master on why it was so interested in the Major and wanted to
bangmerge with the her. The main driver imo was exactly what it says when she asks "why me" in the movie - it was attracted because it thought that Motoko was its "kindred soul" so to say. I get that it is most likely NOT the reading that Shirow or Oshii intended, but the extensive handwaving in the end kinda made me think this way.Sorry for a long reply, lol.
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u/Friendly_Revolution5 3d ago
I think that this is where the new series (and thus the OG manga) paled in comparison with the 1995 movie.
In the 1995 movie, the PM wanted to merge with someone because it had no other choice of escaping its creators. It chose Motoko because it had no time for a more complicated plan, and Motoko would be more likely to accept its proposal compared to other humans.
However, in the new series (and thus the OG manga), the PM already (somehow) “transcended” after its death, making its reason for wanting to merge with Motoko significantly weaker. It would have plenty of targets to choose from, and plenty of time to craft other plans before deciding on merging with a human (e.g. pushing the humans to create another self-conscious A.I. and merge with it, or create copies of itself first so that it can merge with multiple humans, et cetera).
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u/a_hopeless_rmntic 3d ago
trying to be who you are keeps you from becoming who you can be
this really blew my mind when I understood it
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u/DanytheReaper 3d ago
Puppetmaster was just a Motoko-Fanboy - Change my mind
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u/a_hopeless_rmntic 3d ago
when proj2501 found her search logs he knew he found whom he was looking for
when the American professor says "maybe his has a girlfriend in section 9" he knows that proj2051 is looking for someone specific, but he can't support it scientifically, so he just supposes.
puppetmaster is 100% a motoko-fanboy
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u/Fabulous_End5804 2d ago
I remember this scene from the movie.