r/Fantasy • u/Dianthaa Reading Champion VIII • May 28 '20
/r/Fantasy r/Fantasy Virtual Con: Editing Panel
Welcome to the r/Fantasy Virtual Con panel on Editing! Feel free to ask the panelists any questions relevant to the topic. Unlike AMAs, discussion should be kept on-topic to the panel.
The panelists will be stopping by throughout the day to answer your questions and discuss the topic of editing. Keep in mind the panelists are in different time zones so participation may be staggered.
About the Panel
Join panelists Sam Hawke, Ruthanna Emrys, Scott Edelman, Jodie Bond and Anne Perry as they discuss the ins and outs of editing.
About the Panelists
Anne Perry ( u/thefingersofgod) Anne is an editor of science fiction, fantasy, horror, crime, thrillers and everything else that's fun to read.
Jodie Bond ( u/JodieBond) is a writer, dancer and communications professional. She has worked for a circus, a gin distillery, as a burlesque artist and has sold speciality sausages for a living, but her biggest passion has always been writing. The Vagabond King is her first novel.
Scott Edelman ( u/scottedelman) is an eight-time Bram Stoker Award-nominated writer and a four-time Hugo Award-nominated editor of SF, fantasy & horror. And host of the Eating the Fantastic podcast! His most recent short story collection is Tell Me Like You Done Before (And Other Stories Written on the Shoulders of Giants).
Ruthanna Emrys ( u/r_emrys) is the author of the Innsmouth Legacy series, including Winter Tide and Deep Roots. She also writes radically hopeful short stories about religion and aliens and psycholinguistics, several of which can be found in her Imperfect Commentaries collection. She lives in a mysterious manor house on the outskirts of Washington, DC with her wife and their large, strange family. She makes home-made vanilla, gives unsolicited advice, and occasionally attempts to save the world.
Sam Hawke ( u/samhawke) is a lawyer by day, jujitsu instructor by night, and full-time wrangler of two small ninjas and two idiot dogs. Her debut fantasy, City of Lies, won the 2018 Aurealis Award (Best Fantasy Novel), Ditmar Award (Best Novel), and Norma K Hemming Award. She lives in Canberra, Australia.
FAQ
- What do panelists do? Ask questions of your fellow panelists, respond to Q&A from the audience and fellow panelists, and generally just have a great time!
- What do others do? Like an AMA, ask questions! Just keep in mind these questions should be somewhat relevant to the panel topic.
- What if someone is unkind? We always enforce Rule 1, but we'll especially be monitoring these panels. Please report any unkind comments you see.
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u/pornokitsch May 28 '20
I just finished my AMAZING manuscript that is a work of absolute genius. There are unicorns in it. And a main character that looks just like me, but also happens to be super attractive with magic powers and a secret bloodline and a harem of sixty. Spoiler: He saves the world.
I proofread real good, so I don't need an editor, right?
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u/samhawke May 28 '20
Are you kidding? Get that baby up on Amazon, stat. Unicorns AND a sixty strong harem? With ideas like those, who needs the word thingos? ;)
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May 28 '20
Hey folks, thanks for dropping by! I've always wondered why editors don't get more recognition for the work they do. Sure you could find an editors name in the Acknowledgements but I've always thought a proper credits page would go a long way to show folks how much work goes into a novel while giving people the credit they deserve. Plus it would make it easier to follow folks from book to book similiar to the way movie fans will follow an editor or cinematographer around. What do you guys think of having the editors name displayed prominently on or in a book?
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
This is such an interesting question! A few publishers have started including 'end credits' in their books, or a line in the copyright page about who edited the novel, but it's been a fairly controversial move within the publishing industry. On the one hand, I understand the urge; it feels great to have your work on a book recognised. Your average novel will have an editor, possibly a desk or assistant editor or a managing editor, a copy editor, a proof-reader, a cover designer, a production controller, a type-setter, often a marketing person and a publicist. Even if an author might want to acknowledge everyone who worked on the book, they might miss someone. So why not include credits, right?
As to why more publishers don't do this: every publisher out there is (well, should be) aware that the act of reading creates an incredible connection between an author and a reader. I suspect that many of us feel that, ultimately, it's not really our place to butt into that connection.
I'm afraid I don't have an answer one way or the other.
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u/scottedelman May 28 '20
I'm 100% in favor of editor credits within books, and I'm glad some book publishers have already started doing so. I have vague memories of mentions online that someone was going to start an online database so fans would have the information they needed to vote in the Best Editor (Long Form) Hugo Award category, but I don't know whether anything came of it. It's still a great idea!
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u/r_emrys May 28 '20
I think this is a great idea! I always try to include everyone in the acknowledgments, but even if my memory is perfect, there are people who get involved after I write them. Editors, especially those who don't have a big social media presence, are underappreciated, and copyeditors, layout designers, etc., even more so.
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u/pornokitsch May 28 '20
Hello! For those of you that are editors:
What do you edit? (Who do you edit?) (Of whom edit thou?)
What's the best way to find out who edited my favourite books?
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
Hello!
I've edited loads of folks, including Becky Chambers, Pierce Brown, Nnedi Okorafor, Lavie Tidhar, Stark Holborn, Catherine Steadman, James Delargy, Sarah Lotz, Drew Williams, Temi Oh, Emily McGovern, Simon Stalenhag... and many others.
The best way to find out who edited your fav books is to read the acknowledgments. Authors very kindly tend to thank their editors; it always makes our day!
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u/scottedelman May 28 '20
While not currently an editor, I've had decades of previous editorial experience.
My first job in publishing was as Associate Editor of the line of reprint comics Marvel was putting out in the UK, and I then transferred over to work as an Assistant Editor in the Bullpen responsible for U.S. comics. This was all during the '70s, when Stan Lee still worked in the office, not having yet moved to Hollywood. I also edited Marvel's fan magazine F.O.O.M.
From 1992 through 2000 — actually, starting in 1991, to count the year of planning before the magazine launched — I edited Science Fiction Age magazine, where I read nearly 10,000 short stories per year to purchase 35-50.
From there, I briefly edited Satellite Orbit magazine, before moving on to the Syfy Channel, where from 2000-2013, I edited the subsites Science Fiction Weekly, Blastr, and SCI FI Wire. More recently, I edited the weekly newsletter The Bite from the Shudder streaming channel for a year, leaving that job to focus more on my own fiction.
So lots of different kinds of editing experience — comics, fiction, non-fiction, paper, and pixels.
As for finding out who edited your favorite books, I read more short fiction than novels, and for short fiction it's easy to find out the identity of the editor, but when it comes to novels, I find that often writers will thank their editors in an acknowledgments section in the front or back of the book. If they don't do it there, they often mention it on their blogs. And some publishers have begun crediting the editor on the copyright page. I know there was talk for awhile of starting an online database to help Hugo Award voters know which editors edited what to help with voting, but whether that ever got launched, I don't know.
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u/pornokitsch May 28 '20
10,000 short stories per year to purchase 35-50.
That's a lot of short stories! What made one of the 35 stand out?
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u/fanny_bertram May 28 '20
Hello there! Thanks panelist for joining us.
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For those that edit short story collections, what is the biggest challenge when selecting stories for a collection?
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Do you do initial edit of the books as you go along writing or compiling or do you wait until the end?
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u/samhawke May 28 '20
Hi! Thanks for coming to the panel :)
I am very much the kind of writer who does 10 keystrokes for every character that makes it on the page. I'm *very* bad at just drafting freely without correcting things as I go. I'll move sentences around, delete things, try different lines of dialogue, etc pretty much constantly, and I have trouble moving on with a scene if I'm aware it has a problem.
I see this as having pros and cons - as a pro, it means my first drafts are in better shape when I finish them than they might otherwise be, but of course the obvious cons are that I'm slow af, I waste time on paragraphs/scenes that will end up being deleted anyway for structural reasons, and I think having the critical/editorial side of my brain engaged when I'm trying to do first drafts probably hampers my creativity (and is definitely bad for my self esteem).
So I am actively trying to move away from this system and into a greater separation between drafting and editing.
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
Hello!
For the selection process: by and large, an anthology or collection will have an upward limit of pages/words, which means that I can find myself forced to choose between two stories when there's only space for one. That's always a killer.
I always go into an edit, for a manuscript of any length, with an open mind about how I'm going to edit it. Sometimes I start reading during the editing phase and find that I'm only writing structural notes to myself, and sometimes I start making notes on the manuscript itself, as though I'm line-editing. When I find a manuscript needs a significant amount of structural editing, I tend to leave the line-edit until the next stage in the process. But if a manuscript doesn't need a major structural edit, I'll often line-edit as I go along.
So it depends!
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u/lrich1024 May 28 '20
Hello panelists and thanks for joining us today. What is your biggest challenge while editing?
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u/r_emrys May 28 '20
Structural edits are terrifying! (For those not familiar, these are the types of edits that change actual plot points and characterization, and that often require cuts, additions, and extensive rewriting.) Some of this is emotional--facing the fact that a major component of the book isn't yet working is no fun. Some is skill level--this is something I managed to avoid before actually getting my first novel on contract, so I still struggle with implementing the right approach to each change. And some of it, I suspect, is stuff I'll always find challenging. Structural edits are, essentially, stepping on a butterfly in the Jurassic and then having to think through all the implications for the next couple of geological eras. Or sometimes it's looking at something I want to be different during the climax, and figuring out which butterfly I need to move five feet to the left at the beginning.
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
Hello! I'm looking foward to everyone else's answers too! I find a few major challenges tend to present themselves while I'm editing. The major one for me is time: I like to edit in big uninterrupted blocks, and that is next to impossible during the work day. Either I have to basically turn the internet off and get to it, or (more usually) edit at night and on weekends.
In terms of the actual manuscripts themselves, a major challenge during the editorial process comes from finding a balance between the needs of the manuscript, of the sales team who will be selling it to retailers and publishers, and the needs of the author. A manuscript that needs a lot of work can become very upsetting or intimidating to an author, who might feel they're being asked to compromise their vision. When I edit and when I discuss edits with an author, I have to balance these competing needs. That means I make a lot of suggestions, spend a lot of time working with authors to find solutions that work for them and their books, and that I have to know what to say when I feel that I have to stand my ground, and (most importantly) when to back down.
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u/samhawke May 28 '20
Mine is definitely converting the warm pleasant productive feelings I have when thinking about structural edits to the actual horrible intimidating job of knuckling down and doing them.
I enjoy line editing, trimming my (always excessive) word count, fixing my floppy sentences etc. That stuff is easy and methodical and feels satisfying. I also enjoy thinking critically about the book and working out the big picture things that need to change. Planning what I'm going to do in a structural edit is a delight.
It's just doing the bloody thing that's a problem, or at least starting it (I'm OK once I'm in the swing of it) - that first big cut, the first few scenes that need rewriting, etc. We hates it, precious!
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u/lrich1024 May 28 '20
Has anything you've ever cut from a book turned into something else (bonus content or a short or maybe a whole new project)?
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
One author agreed to cut a fairly significant chunk out of a novel; we wound up using it as bonus content on a website promoting the novel, which was fun (although it was a ton of work for both the author and me). Sometimes authors will cut a chapter from the first edition of a novel (say, the hardback) and then we'll re-insert it when we publish the novel as a paperback.
Once in a while, I've had an author rewrite something significant like the final chapter of a novel, and later we'll re-insert it as bonus content when we publish the paperback.
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u/quite_vague May 28 '20
Hi! Thanks for coming on; I love hearing and learning about editing -- and it seems so seldom discussed...
Any words of advice (or warning!) for people who want to become editors? Anything on: How do you start; where do you learn/practice; what does a career path even look like?
Thank you!
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
The 'traditional' path is to start on the bottom rung at a publishing house and work your way up. I started out in academia with no intention of becoming a publisher; I learned to edit by writing academic papers, editing the papers of my peers, and working closely with the professors for whom I was an assistant.
The most important skills you can develop are twofold. One, to be able to look at the big picture and figure out where a story could work better, and be able to offer suggestions to the author. Two, to get into the nitty-gritty and work on the manuscript at the most granular level, word by word. You can train yourself to think like an editor by paying attention to what you're reading so that in addition to enjoying it as a book, you make yourself think about it as an object, with themes and a structure. Think through what the author is doing, why and how.
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u/quite_vague May 28 '20
Do you feel your editing style has changed or evolved over time? How so?
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u/scottedelman May 29 '20
I wish I had the resume which would allow me to answer that question, but I don't.
All of my fiction editing took place during the decades before 2000; all of my editing jobs since have involved non-fiction.
Which means I can't really tell you whether the way I'd edit a short story manuscript today has changed from the way I'd have edited it 10 or 20 years ago.
If anyone has the funding to start a new genre magazine, though, I'd welcome the chance to find out!
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u/quite_vague May 28 '20
Are there types of writing or authors that you find particularly challenging to edit? Not "bad writing that needs a lot of work," but rather, are some kinds of good writing harder to edit than others?
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u/scottedelman May 28 '20
I would say the better a manuscript is, the closer to the author's intentions, the more difficult it is to edit, which is in part what your question is getting at. It's easier to take a manuscript which is 60% there and get it to 75%, then to take one that's 90% there and bring it to its ideal form. It's harder to put one's finger on the more subtle issues than it is the egregious ones.
Often, when I had a story I liked but which wasn't quite there, and I was having difficulty pinpointing what was off, I'd have conversations with the author in which I attempted to determine — what's the real story here? What did you want me to take from it. How did you want me to feel? What did you want the reader's takeaway to be? And so on. Often that led to my understanding of what was in their head that was missing from the page.
It was said of the late Horace Gold's editing skills that he could take a so-so story and turn it into a good story. But he could also take a great story and turn it into a good story. I take that as a dread warning to edit carefully.
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u/quite_vague May 28 '20
How do you recognize good editing?
It seems like so much of the work of editing is hidden in the writing and publishing process; the people involved know what kind of changes were made and what influence the editor had, but nobody else does, and the people who do know generally aren't telling.
So how does anyone know how good different editors are, and what their individual strengths are? And where are the heroic deeds and horror stories of editing to be found?
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u/thefingersofgod May 28 '20
Good editing should be absolutely invisible. The reader should never, ever have a moment where they're pulled out of the narrative because something feels off.
Sometimes, despite an editor's best efforts, a book goes to print with issues - this could be because of time limitations, an intractable author, or even public pressure to get a book out as quickly as possible.
How you might know how good different editors are? Tough question! I might leave that one for someone else to answer. And where might you find the stories? There are some published memoirs by various famous editors of old, but your best bet is to make friends with an editor and get them talking...
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u/scottedelman May 28 '20
That's an interesting question, because it's impossible for anyone to know who's a good editor unless they read a manuscript as submitted and compare it to the piece which was eventually published so they can take note of the changes. All anyone can judge from the outside is who acquired the books and stories they like to read, and though, yes, acquiring is the job of an editor, too, I don't think that's what most people mean when they think "editing." To most people, I believe, editing means massaging the prose, and not all the other aspects of the job.
When I edited Science Fiction Age magazine, I suggested a few titles which I felt better got to the heart of what stories were about, suggested writers find a better way to begin or end a story, helped them unravel a confusing passage ... all things which are between me and the writer. If a writer wishes to speak of them, that's OK, but it's my job as an editor to be invisible.
When I interview writers for my Eating the Fantastic podcast, I do ask them about how editors and critiquers help them tell the stories they want to tell, and one anecdote which comes to mind is James Patrick Kelly explaining how Kate Wilhelm helped him save a story. I don't remember at what point in the episode he gets to that story, but here's the episode if you'd like to give it a listen.
As for horror stories, I know there are tales out there of when books have been butchered, but I can't remember them off the top of my head to provide links. Perhaps one of the other panelists will have a better memory!
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u/samhawke May 28 '20
It's tricky, isn't it? I always think that about the Hugos for editing and wonder - other than people directly involved in a project pre-publication, who knows what an editor has done? If you love a particular work and you know who edited it, are you assessing their skills as an editor or just their good taste for picking a story you love? It's hard to know without being on the inside of industry goss and knowing writers who've worked with the editors in question.
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u/r_emrys May 28 '20
As Anne says, I think on the level of a single novel, it's more-or-less invisible. But, while there may be a scattering of authors out there who can self-edit brilliantly, most of us are too close to our own manuscripts to see the flaws--or the strengths that could be stronger--without help. So if most of the books under a given editor have strong structures, or consistent character arcs, or felicitous word choices, the editor likely has a hand in that.
Of course, a good editor is also going to strengthen the author's own style and goals, so well-edited structure may involve can't-put-down thriller pacing in one case and an opening that sets up every emotional reaction perfectly to build a believable romance in another.
Not as helpful for readers--but at one point after a reading, I heard K.M. Szpara telling someone about the terrifyingly brilliant edit letter for his debut. I went over to join the conversation, and confirmed that the letter style was indeed as familiar as it had sounded, and we were editor-mates! (The debut in question is Docile, which is amazing and probably as different from Winter Tide as it's possible for two debuts from the same editor to get.)
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u/Dianthaa May 28 '20
Welcome, panelists! Feel free to introduce yourselves, share a little about your work, and tell us why you might be on this panel :)