r/Fantasy • u/lrich1024 Stabby Winner, Queen of the Unholy Squares, Worldbuilders • Apr 23 '20
/r/Fantasy r/Fantasy Virtual Con: Progression Fantasy Panel
Welcome to the r/Fantasy Virtual Con Progression Fantasy panel. Unlike AMAs, discussion should be kept on-topic to the panel.
The panelists will be stopping by throughout the day to answer your questions and discuss the topic on what is Progression Fantasy, how it relates to the multiple subgenres spawned from it and more. Keep in mind panelists are in a couple of different time zones so participation may be a bit staggered.
About the Panel
Join authors Will Wight, Andrew Rowe, Sarah Lin, Pirateaba and Domagoj Kurmaić (nobody103) as they discuss the inns and outs of the subgenre that has many (including myself) towards it in droves.
About the Panelists
Will Wight (u/Will_Wight) is the author of the Cradle series, the Elder Empire series, the Traveler’s Gate Trilogy, and the mysterious hieroglyphics that astronauts found on the moon. He was born in Moscow and Memphis simultaneously, and one day his two echo-selves must meet and do battle. He lives in an ancient piano with his two cats and sixteen pythons.
Andrew Rowe (u/Salaris) is the writer of the Arcane Ascension, War of Broken Mirrors, and Weapons and Wielders novels. He started his career as a game designer working for tabletop RPG books for companies like White Wolf, then later entered the video game industry to work on the legendary MMORPG World of Warcraft at Blizzard Entertainment. After leaving Blizzard, he worked at other amazing companies like Cryptic Studios and Obsidian Entertainment. As a long-time RPG enthusiast, Andrew draws heavily from games for his inspiration, especially Japanese role-playing games (JRPGs) like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Ys, Fire Emblem, and The Legend of Heroes.
https://andrewkrowe.wordpress.com/
pirateaba (u/pirateaba ) is the author of The Wandering Inn, an ongoing web serial about a young woman who works as an [Innkeeper] in another world. Currently over 5 million words long with over 35,000 regular readers and updates twice weekly.
Winner of two Stabbies. May have a writing addiction. pirateaba prefers nutritional yeast on popcorn and microwaves bagels. Also, an avid fan of videogames.
Sarah Lin (u/SarahLinNGM) is the author of The Brightest Shadow, Street Cultivation, and New Game Minus. She was Time's Person of the Year in 2006.
http://sarahlinauthor.blogspot.com/
Domagoj Kurmaić (u/nobody103) is an amateur writer from Croatia. He works as an accountant and writes in his free time. His most successful story is Mother of Learning, and is also currently the only (original) story that he posted for people to see.
https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/1/Mother-of-Learning
FAQ
- What do panelists do? Ask questions of your fellow panelists, respond to Q&A from the audience and fellow panelists, and generally just have a great time!
- What do others do? Like an AMA, ask questions! Just keep in mind these questions should be somewhat relevant to the panel topic.
- What if someone is unkind? We always enforce Rule 1, but we'll especially be monitoring these panels. Please report any unkind comments you see.
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u/lrich1024 Apr 23 '20
Questions, comments, or suggestions about the r/Fantasy Virtual Con? Leave them here.
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u/4rch_ Apr 23 '20
I have a question for each of the panelists and one for the whole panel
for Will
When you write your books, do you try to strictly adhere to the rules of your own magic, or do you tend to stray towards of rule of cool, why/why not.
for Andrew
What aspects of video games do you think DON'T translate to novels well or at all.
for piratebea
(I havent read your serial yet, sorry)
Has the quarantine positively or negatively effected your reader numbers?
for Sarah
When writing street cultivation, for your worldbuilding pieces such as training gyms, demon bonds, lottery mystics, How do you think of them, do you try to fuse a real world and fantasy concept, or do you create a fantasy alternative to an existing thing irl.
for Domagoj
In the future if you plan to publish your series as novels, to what extent do you intend to edit and rewrite it?
(If you dont this is an alt question)
Do you intend to have your future work in the same world/universe, or do you want to try something new and different?
for Everyone
Do you think the quarantine is going to largely effect fantasy writing in the future, will a quarantine become a viable fantasy plot/subplot. and even in wider media, will a quarantine become an episode plot for regular TV shows?
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u/JohnBierce Apr 23 '20
If you had to pick any one progression system from another author's books to train in/ use, what would it be? (Let's say you're in their world too.)
And if nothing else changed about your life- no badguys to fight, still have to do laundry and pay taxes and help your elderly relatives with IT issues, what system would you choose? (Assume that the Progression system works in our world.)
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
Vague question for my fellow panelists: how does your creativity interact with different projects? I find it interesting how this group has taken several different approaches. Will and Andrew have multiple series in a shared universe, while pirateaba and Domagoj have focused their work primarily on a single project.
So for anyone: was that an intentional choice, or just how things turned out? For those who shift between series, is that an important part of the creative process for you? For those who focus, do you look forward to working on something new?
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u/SnowGN Apr 23 '20
So, what comes next in your authorial life? Mother of Learning was awesome, and I was sadhappy to see it end. Should we expect a re-released version in Kindle and in physical form soon? Audiobooks? Or will you move on to your next great project? I recall you mentioning a possible sequel on your subreddit, a shorter one with more of a slice of life focus.
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u/barb4ry1 Apr 23 '20
Hi guys,
Thanks a lot for being here. As usual, I have way too many questions so let's get to them:
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What’s the biggest challenge in writing engaging progression fantasy for you?
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What are the current trends in Progression Fantasy?
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When do you find time to write? Does this differ from when you started writing your first novel?
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What’s the one thing you can’t live without in your writing life?
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Can you tell us about your upcoming projects / authorial goals?
Thanks a lot for taking the time to be here and answer our questions. Have a great day.
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u/Callorian Apr 23 '20
So excited for this panel: you all really represent the cream of the crop within the field of progression fantasy. I’ve read almost everything each of you has published in fiction (Sorry Will! I’ll get to the elder empire soon)
Progression Fantasy in its various forms is often derided and looked down on and plagued by accusations of wish fulfillment, self-insertism, deus ex-machina, and shallow characterization.
How much of this do you think is just inherent to the genre and should be embraced rather than avoided? Do you go out of your way in your own writing to stand apart from these criticisms?
Are there other authors in this space who you feel are doing a fantastic job and would like to recommend to us?
Thank you so much for your time.
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u/JohnBierce Apr 23 '20
u/pirateaba- Haven't had a chance to read The Wandering Inn yet, but given the fact you also enjoy nutritional yeast on popcorn, I like you already. You're clearly a person of taste and distinction.
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u/ObsceneGoat Apr 23 '20
I've always wondered how authors write convincing, satisfying power escalation. I often see it done badly (certain shonen anime), but I haven't quite been able to pin down what makes a good threat escalation.
How do you keep challenging your characters without trivializing the gains they have made?
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u/LOLtohru Apr 23 '20
Hello panelists! Progression fantasy has some stigma attached to it in some circles (which is very familiar to me as a reader of romance!). What would you say about what progression fantasy has to offer for those who aren't already into it?
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
It's fine for people to like or dislike whatever genres they prefer, of course. However, I would say that one of progression fantasy's strengths is delving into human effort.
There are many aspects of life that are indifferent to individuals on a personal level, such as global warming or economic forces. Exploring how those impact people is a worthwhile theme, of course, but it isn't the only human theme available. Some philosophers, such as Timothy Morton, have written about how fiction can struggle to interact with impersonal problems on a broad scale. Cancer cannot be cured by introspection, for example, only by the concerted effort of many human beings putting in the work on details that don't tie into any grand themes.
So one thing I've always enjoyed about progression is that it reflects just how much hard work is involved with life. Most things worth accomplishing aren't earned by moments of revelation, but by returning to work on them time after time. Progression fantasy tends to explore violence, but I think they're fundamentally a celebration of human effort and perseverance.
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u/OrangeBasket Apr 23 '20
Wow, great answer! I've been struggling to put into words what makes this genre appeal to me so much and you've nailed it. Probably why you're a writer and I'm not :p
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
Progression fantasy is an emerging genre; there's a lot of copying of the same tropes and it's flooding some markets or just appearing into others. I think that's where the bad rap comes from; overpowered protagonists, harems, sigh...
I understand the criticism. But there's a lot of stories out there and they're not all the same. Progression fantasy, litRPG, web serials--these are just different styles or genres. But I'm willing to bet one out of the many being written or already written will be a story you love. And that's the point--to find that one story.
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u/nobody103 Apr 23 '20
I don't know whether this is simply because it's a young genre so the authors are more willing to experiment, or if its something inherent in progression fantasy, but many of these stories tend to be more novel and inventive in my eyes. The authors take more risks than authors in more established fields do, which admittedly sometimes leads to terrible results, but when they get it right? It's very satisfying.
Also, progression fantasy stories tend to be rather long, which I consider a plus. When I like a story, I want to see more of it, and to dive into details of the setting. Classical fantasy tends to be more 'compact', which often leads to setting details and explanations about background events getting excluded from the story for not being plot-critical enough. It probably doesn't help that most writing advice out there advises people to avoid 'info-dumps' and other things that might slow down the plot and bore people. While I fully understand the reasons for this, I personally find it rather unsatisfying.
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Apr 23 '20
Hi guys! I have a question for pirateaba. I love the Wandering Inn (I’ve been reading for 4 years!) and I’ve always wondered how you keep those writing juices flowing. You write sooo much and it’s honestly impressive. Anyways, what’s your process for coming up with the plot, characters, and everything else in your amazing story?
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
You have to love it enough to want to put years of your life into it. If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to do it. That's all of it, really. I really like all the species, places, etc. If something I find amazing or horrifying appears, in it goes.
Well...if it makes sense. A lot of old ideas from other stories or idle thoughts have made it into TWI in various forms.
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
I have a follow-up question: what do you find are the biggest challenges in writing a serial versus a more episodic fiction series?
I’ve always been fascinated with serials, but I feel like if I didn’t get to finish a storyline and then go back and edit, the results would be...ugly.
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Apr 23 '20
Thanks for the answer! I’ve always wondered what inspired you to create Thomas the [Clown], who I find both amazing and horrifying at the same time. I hope to see more of him soon :)
p.s. I kinda squealed when I saw you responded
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Apr 23 '20
Pirate, I think it is fair to say that you strongly humanize almost all the antagonists in TWI. Even the most famed and nefarious of monsters can be peeled back to find some very relatable motivations - like a mothers love.
Is this something you take a special effort to do or something that comes as an almost inevitable part of a webserial with the sheer quantity of content you put out? After all, the more time spent with/on each villain the more opportunities to explore them in nuanced ways.
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
My villains. It's interesting because some readers have told me they want unlikeable villains. But part of the story's motif may be that it is a rare sort who you can't understand.
Everyone is a person. One-dimensional antagonists or protagonists or what-have-you are...odd. When the player walks past the NPC [Guard], don't you wonder what their story is? If they don't have one, what kind of world is that?
That's how I approach everyone. Everyone is a person, not a placeholder. Especially because the [Innkeeper] of this story is also the heroine.
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u/Morghus Apr 24 '20
This took me a long time to formulate...
One-dimensional and simplistic villains bother me, because they do not feel real, I think. A true and realistic villain is someone I could be, if given the circumstances, and thus I have to be able to see them as human because they carry the same traits as me.
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u/destration Apr 23 '20
My question is directed at pirateaba but open to all. What subjects or topic do you want to go on later in your work / or want to but stay away and why?
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
Oooh. Oooooooooooh. I like this question. Let's get into some controversy! Namely, Mating Rituals Pt.2!
I intended to write it, and I don't regard it as throwaway at all. I regret some aspects of how I delivered it, but I do regard TWI as an evolving piece.
Like how Volume 1 was a very small snapshot of the world, the world as we understand it through Erin and other perspectives is widening. As immediate threats fade away, other things come into light.
Like sex. And yes, there are other things I won't spoil, but I want to go into almost everything because that's a complete world. A world without sex or bowel movements is a weird one, isn't it? And I don't need to focus on it, but pretending it doesn't exist is also odd.
If I'm worried about anything, it's about writing something inaccurately or insensitively or just poorly. But I plan everything out and hopefully it goes well. That's as vague as I can be without spoiling current/future chapters. A world is complete with every topic in it, although the writer does choose what to focus on. We can talk too much about poo.
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u/burningcervantes Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20
For what it's worth, I was shocked at the response to this chapter. I thought it was a very typical chapter, albeit with a slightly atypical focus.
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u/InfiniteTrial Apr 23 '20
The fact that you don't just show the reader the protagonists POV with some painted walls around him, but deliver a living breathing world with all its details, connections and vastness is what I absolutely love about TWI.
MR2 was great imo since it looked more directly on a topic that was hidden on the edge of the stage up to this point. Kinda like when you showed us Pallas and its forges you opened a courtain to something we havent really looked at before.
Im really courious what courtain you will lift next. ^^
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u/destration Apr 23 '20
Thanks for responding, I can see that you are adding bit by bit ....almost like a onion I can see your trying trying different things and I do love how even with our main character there is so much more happening that might / might not affect them. P.S. insensitive might be just another view of the world, so all I can hope you get your fill of poo talk.
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u/Enyavar Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20
We can talk too much about poo.
Hmm, yes. I loved Terry Pratchett, but he overdid it in his last few novels. I know there are/were other (health) issues, but 'Raising Steam' was bad-bad after 'Snuff'.
About the MR2, I found it was just a bit jarring how the focus got swung that totally onto mating all over a dozen different plotlines. Easing into the topic slowly on the various other frontlines (like Jelaqua and Maughin before), might not have had such an impact on readers, I read several loud protests. MR2 could then have focussed onto Erin's viewpoint which is certainly unique and apparently not fully explored. Right now, I imagine many readers are just as confused as Erin seems to be herself about it all.
Back into the question of completing the world - what about repetition and redundancy? I mean, there is so much focus on "the top five [Lords]" or the best magical school of the world, or the foremost [Pirate] Queen, and the best [Strategist]... will you at some point mention some magical schools of human Izril that are not really famous but that still make a living? Other major Drake cities that are not Walled? I know we have seen a few being namedropped, but each only once in passing.
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u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
What subjects or topic do you want to go on later in your work / or want to but stay away and why?
I'd love to reveal more about the past of my setting, but it isn't time yet.
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u/dwinterwhite Apr 23 '20
Whoa an Fantasy Con panel where I have read everyone's work. I always wonder about everyone's educational background. Did you all go to college? Was it worthwhile? What did you take.
More specific questions below.
u/pirateaba Thank you for your ridiculous about of excellent writing. You are a national treasure. According to your website you have a comic coming out this summer. Are you going to do more comics in the future?
u/nobody103 Dobar jutro. Do you think Mother of Learning would adapt well as a comic book? Would you be interested in doing so? What's next for you to write?
u/Salaris I love your puzzle work and think that your books do a great job of showing of character when you have an interesting puzzle in play. What about you any plans for work in a different medium? Do have your own video game planned in universe? A comic book?
u/SarahLinNGM You put some of your works up for free on Royalroad and sell some one amazon? Do you find royalroad drives sales? You don't seem to be driving Patreon subscriptions as hard as the sales focused ones like Shirtaloon and First Defier which have copied Puddles sales method. Any plans to do this?
u/Will_Wight Hi Will. Out of the above your work feels like it is the most connect-the-dot like. I bought all your Cradle books, but towards the end it seemed to fall into that Worm-like (Wildbow not the creature) plot pattern of classic fantasy novels and I decided inside my head that all of your other work would be like that and didn't branch out. I want to read the rest of your stuff, but I want to start with something different from your Cradle books. If you had to suggest one of your works that was the most experimental, most risk-taking with form and plot which one would you say it is?
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
Elder Empire, hands-down. The final books are coming out tomorrow, and it’s a set of paired stories in which the protagonist of one book is the antagonist of the other.
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u/dwinterwhite Apr 23 '20
Excellent. I will buy them tomorrow. Where do you make the most from if I purchase them? Is Amazon best or is there somewhere else that you keep more of the price?
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u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
u/Salaris I love your puzzle work and think that your books do a great job of showing of character when you have an interesting puzzle in play. What about you any plans for work in a different medium? Do have your own video game planned in universe? A comic book?
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoy the puzzles!
I have a board game (Crowns) completely written, but I'd like to find a good company to produce it as an actual game board with minis and such rather than just releasing a rule book on its own.
I have multiple tabletop RPG rules sets in varying forms of completion. It's likely the first one to be released will be a campaign setting book for Pathfinder, but we'll see.
I might release my LARP rules set to the public at some point, but I think it's a little too confusing for non-LARPers to parse and a lot more niche than the tabletop.
I've talked to some PC/console gaming companies about my books, but nothing has manifested just yet. I've worked in the industry and I'm being very picky about who to talk to.
I'm talking to two companies about web comics, but I don't know if or when they might go anywhere. I've talked to one physical comic company as well, but it didn't work out.
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u/dwinterwhite Apr 23 '20
ame (Crowns) completely written, but I'd like to find a good company to produce it as an actual game board with minis and such rather than just releasing a rule book on its own. I have multiple tabletop RPG rules sets in varying forms of completion. It's likely the first one to be released will be a campaign setting book for Pathfinder, but we'll see.
Whoa excellent! Please keep us updated when it enters production.
That makes sense. It is an interesting sphere to be in. I tend to buy the dialogue and puzzle type games that seem to play to both your strengths. So I am very interested to see what will eventually come of this.
If you don't mind sharing, was there something particular that did not work out about the comic other than money?
P.S. I bought all your books already.
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u/nobody103 Apr 25 '20
If that's an attempt at Croatian, it should be 'Dobro jutro'. :)
That's an interesting question. I didn't really think about a comic as a possible medium. Probably because my only experience with 'serious' comics is italian comics like Zagor, Tex, Nathan Never, and Alan Ford. And a few webcomics like Girl Genius.
This is basically a long-winded way of me saying I have no idea.
I talked a little about what I plan to work on next in one of the other comments, so I won't repeat myself here.
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
I want to be cautious about making assumptions about the information I have, since you can never do a proper experiment. Street Cultivation did seem to get some momentum from RoyalRoad, but it's difficult to say how much with any certainty.
My experience on Patreon has been mixed so far. I intend to fulfill all the promises I've made to readers, but I might pause all future payments after that point.
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u/dwinterwhite Apr 23 '20
Interesting. I found you via royal road and have not read your other works. You answered my question you get a sale. Which of your books should I buy?
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u/dwinterwhite Apr 23 '20
Just checked on Amazon and all your books are free except for the most recent one (but I have to pay for Kindle Unlimited). Is this correct? i.e. there is not a way to give you money for your books?
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
If any panelists want to jump in on this question--what's the first progression-fantasy you've ever read that you realized at the time fit into the genre?
For me, definitely Overlord was where I saw the style and put a name to it. Although...the audiobook 'Heir Apparent' predates that as my introduction to the idea of being in a VRMMO.
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
DBZ, probably, but I see elements in Brent Weeks’ Night Angel trilogy, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Skyrim, etc.
In 2012, when I started working on my first novel, I went through my favorite stories and listed out the major traits that I enjoyed.
It made me realize from the very beginning that I enjoyed stories with lots of magic and color and action in which the character grew and struggled to advance.
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
Oh, interesting phrasing, because you can identify this trend prior to it being coined. The first one I read with this specific label attached was probably Arcane Ascension.
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u/nobody103 Apr 23 '20
Either Coiling Dragon or Worm. I'm not sure which one I read first.
Though, reading responses below, I'm guessing I read some example of progression-fantasy way earlier, I just don't associate it with that label.
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u/jinkside Apr 23 '20
90% of classic "hero story" stuff fits here, but the Chronicles of Prydain definitely fit in here. Taran starts at as an assistant pig-keeper
and eventually has to leave the love of his life because she's going to magic elf heaven and he's too devoted to his subjects because he's a king now. 3
u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
If any panelists want to jump in on this question--what's the first progression-fantasy you've ever read that you realized at the time fit into the genre?
I was deliberately looking for a name to describe titles that already existed when I talked to u/will_wight about options, so came at the whole thing kind of backward. (Of note, Jess Richards suggested the name progression fantasy to me while I was messaging with will, so Jess should get the credit for naming the genre.)
In terms of which story was probably the earliest I experienced that fit the mold...probably Ranma 1/2, followed by DBZ.
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u/tctippens Apr 23 '20
Heir Apparent! That was my introduction as well. I've never read the other books in that series but I'd be tempted to for nostalgia's sake.
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u/Nanobeaver Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20
Hello y'all, I have three questions, one for all the Panelists, and two for Pirateaba.
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Pirateaba, how do you maintain such an insanely high rate of writing, especially since you pretty much put out a novels worth of content a week.
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Also for Pirateaba, do you have any plans, writing wise, outside of the Wandering inn
For all the Panelists, it's the question, I don't think I've ever seen an AMA without it being mentioned, and yet ill shamessly ask it anyway.
3. Any advice for a new/fledgling writer
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
I learned to write faster and faster over time. I'm not actually fast as we understand typing; anyone who types or transcribes for a living can probably dust me in a moment. I just know what I'm gonna type next, so my top writing speed is about 3,000 words per hour usually.
I have many stories outside of Wandering Inn. Including old ones I want to do justice to. It's just that uh, TWI takes up most of my time. If I take more breaks I might write them on the side. But yes! Lots of stories I want to write! But TWI is one of my best.
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u/jinkside Apr 23 '20
Averaging 50WPM for an entire hour is legit for anybody. I can type at 90WPM, but I'm pretty sure my hands would fall off if I typed at that pace for an hour straight, let alone the amount you do.
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u/JohnBierce Apr 23 '20
3k words per hour is crazy-pants! That's my DAILY writing goal!
But, in fairness, I'm hella distractible.
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
3. Don’t leave breadcrumbs out overnight or Andrew Rowe will come crawling in and steal them. Then you’ll have to perform a ritual with salt and burning sage to drive him out...it’s a real mess.
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
I've found you can save money on salt and sage by playing Yakety Sax as soon as you notice that Andrew Rowe has sneaked in. It's exhausting, but he runs out eventually.
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u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
3. Don’t leave breadcrumbs out overnight or Andrew Rowe will come crawling in and steal them. Then you’ll have to perform a ritual with salt and burning sage to drive him out...it’s a real mess.
Hiss
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u/Enyavar Apr 23 '20
3. Don’t leave breadcrumbs out overnight
Hahaha! I first thought this was the start of a valuable tip for fledgling writers.
Because, more seriously: If you have a "breadcrumb" of a story and stop writing about it, because 'you will continue next morning': The inspiration can be gone overnight. That's what happened to me several times, I had nice ideas to write about but like dreams these crumbs are gone if you don't start baking them into a delicious cake right away.
I hope my bad analogies can be driven out without messy rituals.
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Apr 23 '20
How much money are you folks making off your work? I know this sounds cynical but I'm genuinely interested. If you don't want to talk about it fair's fair!
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u/pirateaba Apr 23 '20
My Patreon is public record, although I have taken the exact $ amount off as advised. You can use Graphtreon to plot most people's incomes to a varying degree online. I make a lot of money off Patreon, but I am exceedingly fortunate. Amazon, audiobooks came later, but Patreon allowed me to quit my job about two years ago.
At the time I earned $800 per month, which I considered the bare minimum I needed to quit my part-time job and write full-time. The gamble paid off. These days I earn a lot more. I am also not sure if I should quote exact numbers, but it's more than I could ever have expected.
Patreon for me is a very solid and somewhat guaranteed income versus getting irregular royalty payments from a standard publishing contract. However, it relies on a heavy and engaged audience and the web serial format to some degree. I hope it can help supplement incomes for a lot of writers; some established names have come to Patreon (you can find them under the writing section) and they seem to be making good money!
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Apr 24 '20
This was something I meant to ask you about. Just how much pressure is there to avoid taking breaks due to the fickle nature of patreon subscribers? It seems to me that it would be similar to the pressure out on top youtubers to keep cranking out content or quickly lose support. Have you noticed and slides during your breaks?
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
Hello! Thanks for writing the Baru Cormorant series.
I have been a full time creator for about five years, but I have a lot of irons in various fires. I'm a cautious person by nature, so right now my book numbers wouldn't be enough for me to make the leap, though I would be doing okay if I had. Though keep in mind that I'm a frugal person with no expensive tastes except for the desire to spend all my time writing stories.
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u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
I'd rather not give specific numbers, but more than I made as a professional PC game designer with years of industry experience.
Note that reaching the point where my novel income exceeded my gaming industry income took many years, since I wrote five books that I never published (while working full time) and then published about 3-4 more before my income got into a good range. So, I'd written roughly 8-9 books before I'd say my income was reasonable.
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u/Caroc64 Apr 23 '20
When world building do you prefer to build the environment around characters that you already made or change the characters to better fit into the world?
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
They're inextricable for me. The characters are an essential part of choosing what environment is most appropriate for the story, but the environment has a significant impact on character. Usually I start with a tangle of ideas for all parts of the story and they keep pulling on one another until something hopefully cohesive comes out.
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u/just_like_clockwork Apr 23 '20
That sounds difficult to organize, but it clearly works for you. Is there a part of your "tangle-system" that's changed from when you first started versus how you write today?
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
Both.
I start with the world, then that gives me some idea of the themes and the people who live there, which then give me more ideas about the world, and the carousel goes round and round.
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u/nobody103 Apr 23 '20
I always start with a world first. I'm tempted to just pick 'change the characters', but in practice that isn't entirely true. While writing MoL, there are a number of times that I've adjusted the world in response to what happened in the story. Then again, that was kind of the whole premise of MoL in the beginning - write a character living out their life in the setting and see where my big picture worldbuilding clashes with the life on the ground.
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u/YellowTM Apr 23 '20
Have you ever had to change your plan of what the "peak" power level of your world would be while writing? Did it go up or down? Why did you need to adjust it?
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u/Salaris Apr 23 '20
I haven't had to do this, although I've considered it just so my characters can beat up u/will_wights characters more easily.
We all have our priorities.
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u/SarahLinNGM Apr 23 '20
A shifting peak can lead to something I call a "power treadmill" and it's something that I personally try to avoid. Even if you want to surprise your readers, it's important to lay the groundwork for the change so as to avoid cheapening what came before.
But that's just me, and some disagree.
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u/nobody103 Apr 23 '20
No. I usually have a pretty good idea of how the world of the story looks like, since most of my story ideas start as worldbuilding projects, so I always know what the 'power ceiling' is. I dislike breaking that, since that does not just risk breaking the story, but the underlying worldbuilding as well.
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u/kaloskatoa Apr 24 '20
It also helps that in your case the main challenge is introduced at the very beginning.
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u/Will_Wight Apr 23 '20
Nope.
There’s a tip I received a while ago: to introduce the ceiling of your power scale early so that the reader knows where they’re headed.
I understand that advice differently now so I could probably implement it better in the future, but the fact remains that I try to have a static ceiling for the same reasons that Sarah outlines.
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u/juppie1 Apr 23 '20
You don't even necessarily have to show the ceiling for that. If you have an established power cure (levels/ranks/etc) and you show some of the steps along the way, readers can get a feeling for what is possible without even seeing it.
Say there are 4 ranks. And someone form the lowest rank sees someone form the second highest rank and the powerlevel is (noticeably) higher but not inconceivably so, then you also established an approximate level for the highest rank, without showing it of yet.
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u/Ahuri3 Apr 23 '20
I have read a book (or serial) by everyone in this panel except The Wandering Inn. I'll try to make this up quickly :)
My questions :
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If you could only recommend one, which other panelist's book/serial would you recommend ?
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2020 Bingo ! Which of your books are Hard modes for which squares ?
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u/TheForthcomingStorm Apr 23 '20
I’ve always had an idea to write something, but either I think about it and realize the idea is terrible, or it sit down, try to write a chapter of it, and then have zero idea of what happens next than delete it. Any tips for actually coming up with a good plot for a story or writing those first few chapters? (the “just write” strategy usually ends in disappointment and a wasted hour.)
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u/hanqua1016 Apr 23 '20
Hi pirate
One thing I always thought while reading your chapters within the hour they came out was "holy shit how much lore does this world have". A lot of fantasy novels I read where the story happens spanning multiple continents the continents felt so... empty.
Most fantasy media (especially the mass produced isekai lanovels of the last 5 years) focused on one continent if even that and made every other continent feel like a collection of generic cities and wilderness, whereas TWI consistently has bits of lore for what feels like every corner of the innverse.
My question is, how do you write so much lore into a world? Do you have a Grand Book of Lore™ you prepared before you started writing or do you just worldbuild on the fly?
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u/LyrianRastler Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20
Hey everyone! Big fanboi here!
My question for each of you is: what is your favorite aspect of progression fantasy that makes it more fun for you to write over the more 'traditional' fantasy approaches/story? (or if there is a difference at all in your mind?)
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u/GraveyardTourist Apr 23 '20
This is a question for every panelist: Has COVID changed how you got about writing, and if so, how?
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u/lrich1024 Apr 23 '20
Hello panelists and thanks for joining us today! Please further introduce yourselves and tell us a little more about your work. Thanks!