Hello everyone, I’m trying to work on faster doubles by playing around with grip tension so I have a bit more dexterity on my firing hand. I feel like I need to learn where the wall of the trigger is better for faster follow ups but I could use a few more tips from the pros. Thank you all in advance! 🙏
Oh boy struggled with this one myself until it clicked. Dont overthink grip pressure and trigger pull. Most people think the solution is a better grip or trigger pull but speed and cadence should be dictated by your eyes and how the gun reacts in your hands. My suggestion is to stop paying attention to your doubles groups and more so how the dot acts during your doubles practice. Less on what the holes on the paper look like and more on what the light streak of the dot looked like and how the gun felt. Did it look like an 8, did it bounce up and down in a straight line, does it dip below my point of aim, was it actually where i wanted it to be when I sent the second round, etc. Over time you'll just kind of know if something is off and can immediately react with a 3rd follow up shot on target during a stage.
I want to follow up with none of this matters if your fundamentals arent solid, like if you cant keep the gun still when pulling the trigger quickly then figure that out first with dry fire before worrying about doubles.
Glad you found it helpful, but I dont think I explained it fully. The point of knowing your dot behavior isnt so that you can muscle the gun to stillness before your next shot. Its so that you know the exact moment that the gun is pointing where you are aiming even before your brain has finished registering the gun's recoil from the first shot. You don't have faster follow ups by controlling the recoil faster, you have faster follow ups by shooting the gun as soon as its physically aimed at the target after it has cycled from recoil. Its a concept known as predictive shooting, and its more about sight picture acceptance rather than straight up recoil control. Its a very difficult idea to conceptualize in practice, and takes even longer to master. In your case, straight up and down is fantastic. Its very predictable. Next step is knowing at what point during the "bounce" would be an acceptable sight picture to send the next round and have it be on target, rather than waiting for the dot to settle completely.
Ahhhhh so more about timing now and less about recoil management, obv I would like to fix some fundamentals still but this helps the mindset when I hit the range today
It kind of vibrates after the shots. Maybe too much tension? I’d suggest doing the one shot return drill (paster on target, shot once and get the dot back on the paster as fast as possible) and focus on understanding what grip pressures are really needed to simply return the dot to your target.
Would you say that is a firing grip over tension or support hand, I have more lateral movement but I’m not sure if that is due too to much grip on firing hand or on support?
I can’t really tell, grip goes all the way back into your elbows, shoulders and how your body is positioned. It may be more complicated than “too much firing hand tension”. You could take a class or do a deep dive into some training videos
I have looked at videos but unfortunately I don’t have too many experienced shooters I’ve been able to connect with in my area to help me. I don’t mind paying for a class I just want to make sure it’s the right class too
I switched through many weights of 9mm and finally found one that my ported likes where the dot returns to zero after I break that first shot. I ride high with my support hand and not too much pressure on it either l, just enough to hold the gun from falling. Getting 17 splits Azones. Wish I could go faster but getting old.
Ahhhh I haven’t quite looked at using specific weight ammo as I’m trying to build better fundamentals first. I’ll definitely look into it when I get better!
Did anyone recommend you fix your stance? You are getting shoved back on each shot. Because of that it is impossible to have a consistent return to zero. Work on a forward stance.
I actually haven’t been given any proper advice on stance only that I should be upright and not leaned forward but not sure if that’s good advice or not
You want an athletic stance but don't have to be squatting like you see many do. I have a video of me and my wife shooting. When she is shooting she doesn't move back at all and all I had her do is lean slightly forward to engage her core. You see more vertical recoil but it's repeating the same every time. That matters more than flat. I can share the vid but it is only our arms and hands.
Better than many videos posted here but there's always more we can do to improve our fundamentals. I'll post a follow up comment with videos on the techniques and key drills--that will cover every point I make.... But, specifically about what I see in this video:
Okay angle on the video but: we'd like to see more of you wrists and arms and we need a picture of the target so we can actually calibrate what we see in the video with the results.
We can't see your upper body but given how you're getting pushed back, it's clear that your stance & posture need to be fixed.
You need to forget whatever crap you've heard about "prepping the trigger", "riding the reset", etc. that's decades out of date advice. You need to practice e.g. Trigger Control at Speed and the various progression of drills that I'll also describe in follow up comments.
It's unclear what you were doing on that first pair. It was much higher to begin with than all the other pairs in the video.
It's hard to be sure given the quality and what's missing in what we see but your support hand tension looks decent.
You have too much strong hand tension. That's what's causing the oscillation of the muzzle. But there might also be too much trigger input.
Seeing a picture of the target would help a lot to figure these out. Including...
Given that the gun is returning reasonably consistently to where it fired from, that's a decent sign about your visual focus.
But you're also shooting fairly slow (especially in that second string) so how much you're actually doing predictive vs quicker reactive shooting is an open question. I'd like to see another video (plus target picture) of you shooting quicker, fully predictive doubles after you fix your stance/posture issues.
I really appreciate the drill down questions, I’ll make sure to get better angles next time I’m at the range. I was also thinking the strong hand tension was too much but I think that paired with improper stance is making it harder to get the don’t returned due to how much force Im driving down with the gun. I’m thinking a good amount of issues I’m having can be fixed with proper stance so I’m going to work on that. One question I had on stance was whether it’s better to be postured up like natural or if it’s better to drive the gun forward almost lowering the shoulders? TIA!
Of course everyone is built different so you will have to play around to find what works best for you but you do want to be balanced forward so that you can move in any direction. Generically, an athletic stance.
Ask again with after you watch the two videos about that in my video list.
Definitely too much dominant hand tension. See my note in another comment about practicing a firm handshake.
Note that when it comes to managing the gun's recoil, to goal is to make it sewing machine consistent in returning. Do NOT try to "make the gun shoot flatter" or otherwise believe that you can/should force the gun to return quicker. Let your grip/body manage the recoil while you stay aggressively visually focused on the small spot on the target that you're shooting.
Sorry I had to make the pic into a video for some reason but here is the target rolled in, original target was at about 12-15 yards but that’s as far as I’m comfortable shooting at this speed as you can see. The first initial shots where head level then i switched to center mass. Not rhyme or reason as to why
For completeness, here's my generic recommendations on how to help us help you...
Note that we can give you personalized, specific, high-quality advice when we can see both the video of youshootingAND thetarget so we can match them up to properly calibrate any specific advice we're going to give you.
For fundamentals of marksmanship... How to video yourself:
Set the camera up on your support hand side, even with your trigger guard. Make sure everything from the muzzle to past your wrists are in frame. I.e., we don't need to see your face, etc. if you're worried about sharing publicly.
Record it at a high enough resolution and at a fast enough speed that we can watch it clearly at e.g. half speed.
Warm up with whatever drill(s) you want and then switch to a clean target before filming. This is so you can take a photo of the target after the filming and share that along with the video so we can calibrate how we see you shooting in the video with the target. Bonus is to take a second video doing the same drill on your strong hand side.
You can film whatever drill you want but the default to film is the Doubles Drill. But doing Progressive Return Drill would be okay, too.
Run a few mags worth of the drill and record the last magazine's runs. Then take a photo of the target. Then post the video(s) to e.g. Youtube and post the picture of the target with the link to the video here so we can watch it at various (slower) playback speeds.
You should start doing at e.g. 7-ish yards and work to keep the hits in a fist/softball sized group.
As I talk about in the progression, when you have a larger sized group than that you need to figure out what's broken and fix it immediately (at that same distance and speed). Otherwise you're just ingraining bad habits.
Once you can consistently do a sub-fist sized grouping at that speed then increase the speed and/or the distance and/or the difficulty of the target.
Here's a progression of drills and what to focus on so you can learn this through your own experience...
In terms of vision: make sure your vision focus is correct: crystal clear focus on a small spoton the target and the spot stays in focus the entire time. You should NEVER be "tracking the dot" or focused on the sights!
In terms of grip: the gun should NOT move inside your hands at all for the entire time you're shooting! I.e., both hands should remain completely in sync with the gun throughout shooting lifecycle; the gun should track consistently in recoil precisely back to where your eyes are focused on the small spot on the target; and you should be able to cycle (pull & release) the trigger quickly without inducing movement on the gun/sights. Additional tension much beyond that minimum can/will induce various problems. Have you ever done a firm handshake? Start there.
Shoot each of these drills one-handed and two-handed. I.e., one handed with your dominant hand (SHO). Then do it with your support hand only (WHO). Then do it with both hands and make sure your support hand is gripping as much of the pistol as you can with the same level as when you shot support hand only.
Start with One Shot Return. Do it with a timer ala Trigger Control at Speed: set multiple par times so you're reactingimmediately to the beep for each shot. Is the dot/sights coming back to your eyes on the spot on the target quickly, precisely, and consistently every single time?
Then do the Two Shot Return Drill: Exactly the same as One Shot Return above but you fire a second shot immediately when you visually confirm the dot/sight is back where your eyes are looking at the small spot on the target. Nothing should change from shot to shot! Grip, wrists, vision, etc. This is still reactive shooting but you mustshootimmediately when you register the appropriate visual confirmation for that target.
Then do the Practical Accuracy Drill. Just do one string at a time. Everything else should be exactly as in the Two Shot Return Drill above. With this longer string, you will find your grip, trigger, wrist, and vision issues: where they aren't completely consistent from shot to shot within the string. Fix those. In terms of calibration, the shots can be stacked farther away than most people think and even at longer distances the groups should be compact. This is NOT "group" shooting! You mustshoot immediately when the visual confirmation is what you deliberately choose given the specific target!
Then do the Double Return Drill. Similar to the Two Shot Return Drill but do NOT wait for the visual confirmation for the second shot. Start at the pace of your splits that you were doing the Practical Accuracy Drill. This should feel slow since you've already made the decision to pull the trigger twice. This is the time to put a lot of attentional focus on making sure your visual focus stays rock solidly in focus on the small spot on the target. Then, keeping everything else the same, shootthe second shotsooner -- i.e., start predicting how quickly you can work the trigger for the second shot.
Then do the full Doubles Drill. Do everything as with the Double Return Drill above. Everything above holds but the longer string of doubles will really put your fundamentals to the test... Is your grip unchanging for the entire string (or did you have to adjust part way through)? Did the gun move within your hands? Was the dot/sights coming precisely & consistently back to where you were looking? Were you over- or under-confirming each time? Did you observe & notice what was going on for each shot? Etc.
Then do the Progressive Return Drill. All the same success criteria as in the doubles drill but with an increasing number of shots after each beep. This is much better than only doing e.g. the bill drill as the varying number of shots helps break up the ingraining of always shooting two shots per.
Play around with the pace of how quickly you're cycling the trigger on the second/follow-on shot(s) -- everywhere fromliterally as fast you can pull the triggerto your speed ofPractical Accuracysplits. This is how we can very efficiently & effectively learn what (predictive/reactive) pace works for each of us when shooting at any given target at any given time.
In terms of calibration, at closer distances you can stack shots on top of each other but in terms of learning, shooting the second shot sooner while keeping within a fist sized group is a good balance. No BS "slow down to get your hits"! If the group is larger than that then you need to fix whatever's brokenat that speed.
Then as the groups gettighter,speed upagain and/orincrease the distance/difficultyof the target. This is the complete process--no BS about "speed"/"exploration" vs "accuracy"/"match" mode. Practical shooting is about the combination of speed & accuracy.
In terms of distance start at 7 yards so that you can see the "A" on the target in clear focus. Increase the distance/difficulty to force adapting to be more precise at speed.
Good ergonomics will help a lot. If you are still running thise stock cz grip panel, replace them with lok grips. The palm swell ones really transform the gun for the better. It's easier to find the proper amount of grip pressure when the gun is not sliding inside your hands when shooting. You could also try to tune the recoil impulse of the gun with different springs.
The meta these days is to always be shooting on the move. So while doubles are good practice in general. You will pick up way more points hitting alphas while on the go. That's a whole new set of skills.
28
u/unsmilingdoge 3d ago
Oh boy struggled with this one myself until it clicked. Dont overthink grip pressure and trigger pull. Most people think the solution is a better grip or trigger pull but speed and cadence should be dictated by your eyes and how the gun reacts in your hands. My suggestion is to stop paying attention to your doubles groups and more so how the dot acts during your doubles practice. Less on what the holes on the paper look like and more on what the light streak of the dot looked like and how the gun felt. Did it look like an 8, did it bounce up and down in a straight line, does it dip below my point of aim, was it actually where i wanted it to be when I sent the second round, etc. Over time you'll just kind of know if something is off and can immediately react with a 3rd follow up shot on target during a stage.