r/ChineseLanguage • u/ReigningSnowshoe • Mar 03 '20

Studying What's something one needs to know when starting to learn Chinese?

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94

u/Dr_Jahko Mar 03 '20

Don’t forgo writing practice. Writing aids reading because you quickly learn to recognize radicals. It also makes you look smart as hell to your non-sinophone pals

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u/3GJRRChl4ImGS6ukZwaw Mar 03 '20

Yes, stroke order practices aids memory of the glyphs, it is a memorization journey o decomposition the glyphs correctly in akin to a memory palace/loki method.

Using pinyin as a crutch means you will never be strong enough to run.

Pinyin is useful, but is limited to oral aid in pronunciations and listening, it is NOT the correct form of the glyphs.

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u/CipherAgentMurat Mar 03 '20 edited Mar 04 '20

I love the Chinese characters. (Not sure why you call them glyphs. Nobody does that in English basically.)

The characters and pinyin are different systems. Of course it isn’t a form of the “glyphs” or vice versa.

If you don’t plan to read Chinese and just want conversational ability, you don’t need to learn the characters. Pinyin is fine.

But anyways, pinyin can function as a writing system for Mandarin. During the time when the party wanted to replace characters with a romanization system, they published newspapers in pinyin. Literate native speakers had zero problems reading them. There’s a website called pinyin with a bunch of cool information. Those papers are there. If your Chinese is good enough, you can see for yourself how easy they are to read.

Stroke order is nice. Being consistent with the way you write helps with memory. Proper stroke order helps with writing like a native. Proper stroke order by itself doesn’t magically help with memory. Like I said, it’s being consistent with patterns that does. Might as well do it the proper way, though.

Pinyin isn’t a crutch necessarily. It depends on your goals. I hate to tell people to memorize characters when all they want to do is have a chat with some friends. (Nonnative speakers, if tested randomly, probably can’t write most of what they say. No matter how elitist they appear. Fun trick. Find someone who thinks their hot **** when it comes to Chinese. Ask them to write the character for turtle from memory. They probably won’t be able to.)

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u/LibertarianFascist69 Mar 03 '20

I have never learnt to write, Still I can recognize 2000+ characters already...

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u/LokianEule Mar 03 '20

Tones are hard for English speakers. Although it's important to memorize/know what tone each word is, it's more important to have a memory of having heard someone say the word, so you can base your pronunciation off that memory, and not intellectual knowledge of what the tone is.

Secondly, have fun! It's a long journey to the end, so enjoy the journey!

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u/Elevenxiansheng Mar 03 '20

It's gonna take many hundreds of hours to get decent and thousands to get really good. Be in it for the long haul.

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u/StarryNari Mar 03 '20

Don't translate directly from another language (I'm thinking of English). In more complicated sentences, it won't make sense at all and nobody will understand you.

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u/Incur Mar 03 '20

Good advice, reading might be hard at first, but the faster people start try to read Chinese, the more phrases and structures they will pick up to speak Chinese.

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u/nmfisher Mar 03 '20

  1. It requires a *lot* more work than any other language. You've got to be in it for the long haul, which means regular practice - at least an hour every day.

  2. If you just want to be conversational as quick as possible ("Hi, how are you? Where are you from?", etc), you can defer characters. But if you want to become proficient in the long term, you need to learn how to read characters (and the best way to do so is to learn to write). If you're not able to read full sentences, you won't (IMO) be able to meaningfully enlarge your vocabulary. The earlier you start, the better (again - one hour every day is what I recommend).

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u/Viola_Buddy Mar 03 '20

I'm being something pedantic, but I feel like your first point is untrue. It requires more work than languages that are related to English (assuming you know English) - which are admittedly most of the most commonly taught second languages (Spanish, French, even things like Russian - they're all Indo-European). But I would think other unrelated languages like Korean or Arabic would be roughly similar to Chinese in terms of difficulty for an English-speaker. The reason I bring this up is that a lot of times Chinese comes up as one of the hardest languages to learn, but I believe that's untrue; it's just that we tend to think of French and Spanish first when comparing, and these two are especially close to English.

This doesn't diminish your second sentence, though. Any language requires at least a couple years of regular (nearly-daily) practice, even languages "similar" to English, let alone ones that are unrelated.

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u/Wanrenmi Mar 03 '20

Imagine learning a language is like climbing a mountain, with mastery of a language being the summit.

With most languages, once you master something, it speeds up your ascent or makes it easier. Like, once you learn the alphabet, climbing the mountain is faster (as if you are riding a horse for your climb now). Maybe the language is similar to your native tongue, so you climb quite quickly.

But with Chinese, there are almost no shortcuts. There is very little that can speed your journey to the top. There's a reason people call it one of-if not THE-most difficult language. It really is just hard work and perseverance that gets you to the top.

source: over 20 years of learning and teaching the language

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u/CipherAgentMurat Mar 03 '20

They call it the hardest because of the writing system. The actual language apart from writing is way easier than many agglutinative languages with SOV word order for English speakers.

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u/floer289 Mar 03 '20

Abandon hope all ye who enter here. :-) But seriously, it is a very big commitment, so make sure you have enough motivation, and be patient, because it is going to take a while.

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u/theleftkneeofthebee Mar 03 '20

Also, people will tell you stuff like "you're trying to learn Chinese? Lol good luck that's like impossible." Or "I know a guy who studied Mandarin for years and he still isn't fluent." There's people in this thread saying stuff like that.

Don't listen to these people. Yes, learning Mandarin is hard but so is learning any language. I'm fluent in Mandarin and I'm trying to learn German now and there are parts of German that are much harder than Mandarin.

Every language has its difficulties. Don't let people saying that it's hard put you off from trying to learn a language. Because chances are, the people telling you those things can't speak Mandarin, and have no idea what they're talking about.

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u/vigernere1 Mar 03 '20

This thread has gotten a lot of traction, I'm going to start linking to it in the future when "I'm a beginner, where should I start?" questions are asked. To that end, below are copy/pastes I've provided previously in other threads; apologies for the wall of text.

General Suggestions

  • It's a good idea to take an aural/oral approach in the beginning. Learn the Mandarin phonemes, initial/final combinations well, along with Pinyin. Have a native speaker check your pronunciation.

  • Don't ignore tones.

  • Don't waste time memorizing lists of radicals.

  • Don't learn single characters. Learn whole words, in context, taken from whatever you are reading/watching/listening to.

  • Learn how to write characters using standard stroke order, then stop. No need to invest significant time developing handwriting skills since most written communication today is typed. When practicing handwriting, use grid-lined, character worksheet paper. (You can print these for free online).

  • Use an SRS-based flashcard program. Whenever possible use clozes. As a beginner you'll heavily rely on flashcard learning, but in the long run you want to decrease your reliance on it in favor of increased consumption of native media.

  • Mandarin learning apps will only take you so far.

  • Have a set study routine and stick to it every day.

  • It will take approximately 3,380-4,680 hours to develop the proficiency necessary to read an average newspaper article at a high level.

  • Perhaps more than anything, the key to success is perseverance and the willingness to slog your way through the language for years on end.

Learning in Context

It's best to learn words, in context, from the things that you are reading/watching/hearing/writing. Learning single words (let alone single characters!) with no context is a less productive and does not lead to better recall or production. By way of example, here are three ways you could learn 「構」, from least to most useful:

  • Single character:「構」construct, form, compose

  • Single word: 「結構」structure; composition; construction

  • Single word, in context: 「這棟大樓的結構不穩定」／This building's structure is unstable.

SRS-based flashcard study should use clozes whenever possible. Using the above, a cloze would look like this:

  • 「這棟大樓的__不穩定」

Notes:

  • At first beginners may more on learning single words (possibly with no cloze) while they build a basic vocabulary.

  • In the long run you want to decrease reliance on flashcards in lieu of increased reading/writing/speaking/listening (especially extensive reading).

Repetition

Repetition is one key to success, specifically: 1) high volume, 2) varied, 3) contextual, 4) mutual reinforcing, 5) enjoyable.

  • Varied: learning/using grammar and vocabulary through different topics and mediums

  • Contextual: not learning vocabulary/grammar in isolation

  • Mutual reinforcing: learning activities that reinforce and/or build upon each other

  • Enjoyable: liking the topic and methods through which you are learning it

Another key to long-term success is routine (i.e., an organized set of habits). The cartoonist Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) wrote the book How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big: Kind of the Story of My Life. He uses the term "systems" to describe a set of habits (i.e., a routine) that incrementally lead to success:

  • "...a system is something you do on a regular basis with a reasonable expectation that doing so will get you to a better place in your life. Systems have no deadlines, and on any given day you probably can’t tell if they’re moving you in the right direction."

This notion of "systems" is applicable to everything, including learning Mandarin.

Comprehensible Input

Comprehensible input is an important aspect of acquiring language, this video gives a high-level overview, and it's based on the work of Stephen Krashen. In this short video Dr. Krashen discusses his theory of language acquisition and comprehensible input; this lecture by Dr. Krashen (~1hr) is worth watching too.

The Importance of Tones

Learning Pronunciation

As a beginner it's critical that you learn how to pronounce Mandarin initials/finals/tones correctly. (As to the importance of tones, read this thread). For this reason, feedback from a native speaker is important.

My advice: in the beginning take an aural/oral approach, focusing on pronunciation, speaking, and listening. Learn Pinyin, do tone drills (see bottom), and start building a basic vocabulary. Example:

  • Initial/final (pinyin): hao

  • Tone drill: hǎo (third tone)

  • Vocabulary: good; OK (好）

You can then incorporate bisyllabic words or put multiple words together to create a phrase:

  • Initial/final (Pinyin): ni

  • Tone drill: nǐ (third tone)

  • Vocabulary: you (你/妳)

  • Word (nǐ hǎo): hello (你好；nǐ becomes second tone (ní) due to tone sandhi)

Note: I provided characters above for reference, but you do not need to incorporate the written language into your beginning studies.

1x/week meet with an iTalki tutor (or a local native speaker) and work through your pronunciation by speaking the individual words and phrases you've learned. Have the tutor test your listening by randomly speaking an initial/final combination (essentially a monosyllabic word) and having you guess the correct initial/final/tone. Build upon this by incorporating bisyllabic words and longer phrases. At this phase, all of this speaking/listening may feel a bit draining, so consider meeting for just 20-30 minutes as opposed to 45-60 minutes per session.

Note: additional thoughts:

  • In the early phase your iTalki sessions will be conducted almost entirely in English, as you will not have sufficient vocabulary to conduct a conversation in Mandarin. In fact, this will be the case for quite a long time.

  • Have a set of topics/questions that you want to review with your tutor for each session. Don't rely on the tutor to provide a structured curriculum; you need to develop one tailored to your learning style and needs.

  • As necessary, in advance of your session provide your tutor with PDFs/screenshots/links to the material you have been reviewing so that they can be up to speed and prepared for your questions, or ask you more focused questions based on those materials.

Tone Drills

(Although Glossika uses a paid subscription model, the tone drills are free).

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u/vigernere1 Mar 03 '20

Resources

Grammar Books

Beginning (A1+)

Intermediate (B1+)

Advanced (C1+)

Extensive Reading

In short, extensive reading is:

  • Reading material at your level (ideally ~98% comprehension)

  • Reading for an extended period of time

  • Not interrupting your reading by looking up unknown words (you can look them up after you finish reading)

For more details, search this subreddit on "extensive reading", or Google "extensive reading foundation guide" and read the first ~5 pages. You can also read this great post on www.hackingchinese.com.

Achieving Fluency

Taking Your Mandarin to the Next Level

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u/pandaking1991 Mar 03 '20

I believe pinyin is the most important element to set fundamentals for mandarin pronunciation. It does not associate with Chinese words, pure English letters. Set your base right can make a lot of things easier.

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u/ReigningSnowshoe Mar 03 '20

Are there any resources you recommend for learning pinyin?

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u/onthelambda Mar 03 '20

I think the most important is to realize that there is a lot of language orthodoxy from mediocre students about what you have to do...find your own stride and stick to it. It's a grind, but it's doable.

Study pronunciation from the beginning. If your teacher isn't strict about tones, find a new teacher. Shadow.

Separate speaking from learning to read (and write, if that's your bag). Reading takes significantly more time than becoming conversational.

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u/theleftkneeofthebee Mar 03 '20

Make mistakes.

Sounds counterintuitive but it's so important to make mistakes and get corrected earlier on, rather than being too afraid to make a mistake and thus never finding out whether or not that grammar pattern can be used in that way or not.

Also, don't beat yourself up over the mistakes that you do make.

Most common ones when starting out are:

  1. getting tones wrong, or overdoing them

  2. using 了 incorrectly

  3. 不有 instead of 沒有

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u/zajalu Mar 03 '20

Don’t take shortcuts in your studies (ie google translate). Put in the hard work at first and it will be so much easier later.

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u/Seya_Emillia Mar 03 '20

Tones. Learn the basic 4 tones and how to pronounce them before going to learn other things

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u/Incur Mar 03 '20

Pinyin is a useful tool to get started with the sounds of Chinese, but once you start learning maybe 100 so words (or all the HSK 1 words) it is time to switch to characters. Not studying characters is a crutch you want to get passed, because it will be beneficial to learn them for reading in the long run.

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u/ktisis Mar 04 '20

If you are just learning to speak and listen, this is what you need to know.

The first thing you have to learn is the hardest thing. Give it time, be patient, and the language will come quickly after you get over this first hurdle.

The first thing you need to learn, and learn well and deeply is phonetics. Find a native/fluent speaker. Start by listening to the language until you can hear the different sounds. Then practice your tones and syllables until you can make the different sounds. This is tedious, but it is important if you want to be understood.

After a few months of solid pronunciation practice, you'll be surprised at how easy it is to learn new things, and how well you are understood. The grammar and structure of the language are really quite simple.

I have a few friends who didn't follow this advice, and learned a lot of vocabulary really quickly. They use flashcards and have a really solid amount of words they know. I can understand when they speak Mandarin because I hear the syllables more than the tones. Local native speakers struggle to understand them because their tones are all over the place, and they often can't distinguish between ch/q, zh/j, and sh/x. They get frustrated because they think they are speaking well by knowing the phonemes, but they've neglected the tones. Please don't be like them.

If you also want to read and write, buckle up. I hope you have a good memory and attention to detail. This is demanding and hard. My only advice here is to make your expectations more modest than you might presume.

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u/ChubbyAngmo Mar 03 '20

Chinese is a long game, don’t expect quick and easy returns. It will take years for you to become fluent and proficient so remember to take it one day at a time. It’s easy to get discouraged when studying this language.