r/AdvancedRunning • u/CPanza01 • Jun 08 '21
Training Temperature Adjusted Pace in Summer
Now that we're entering summer and the hot and humid runs are right around the corner, I'm curious what method/calculation people use to figure out "temp adjusted pace". So, for instance, let's say I run a 10k at 10 min pace and it is 76F and 65 dew point.
- Some sites (such as Maximum Performance) say add temp + dew (141) and then look up on a particular chart what adjustment to make, so in this instance a 3% adjustment, which would be 10:18.
- Other sites (such as Podium runner) say those who averaged 7:25 to 10:00/mile slow between 4 and 4.5 seconds per mile for each 1° C (1.8° F) higher than 59° F. So according to this method, my hypothetical 10k run at 10 min pace would end up between 10:38 and 10:42.
Between the two sites, using different methods, that's a big difference in adjustment. Even going with Podium Runner's low end (10:38), that's a difference of 20 seconds average pace.
I get that to most people this is no big deal, but I'm in the midst of a long training plan that works primarily on slowly increasing my average pace while staying aerobic (Zone 2). I collect a lot of data to assess longitudinal progress (I write on this at my substack site, Brief Habits), so it's important for me to make temperature adjustments to while we're in the warmer months. So I'd like to make adjustments to my raw data (in the summer) that are realistic.
Obviously I could just "pick one" method and stick it to, which is what I'll surely end up doing. But which do you think is more accurate? Or do you use some other method?
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u/Hooch_Pandersnatch Jun 08 '21
80 degrees and dew point of 77 at 5 AM today in Texas. Yeehaw.
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Jun 08 '21
Lol workout this morning was 81 at 95% humidity and real feel of like 86 or something. It was stupid
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u/MichaelV27 Jun 08 '21
I go by HR. At the same average HR, my easy pace slows down by over a minute per mile on hot, humid days.
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u/Run_26point2 Jun 08 '21
This is perfect. It doesn’t matter how hot or cold, HE is HR and that’s all the body knows when it comes to running.
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u/Gumbode345 Jun 09 '21
I agree too. I'm older and not a strong runner but have a lot of experience and hr has an immediate impact from heat/humidity and that's what slows me down.
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u/zebano Jun 08 '21
If your goal is to stay in zone 2, then just use an HRM and stay in zone 2... who cares what the adjustments say.
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u/CPanza01 Jun 08 '21
Because I'm trying to increase pace within Zone 2, not just stay in Zone 2 for its own sake. I always DO stay in Z2, but I measure each week whether I'm getting faster at the same HR.
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u/Comfortable-Plan2658 Jun 08 '21
I was just reading your site a little bit - very cool!
I had a few thoughts:
- If you're training by heart rate, then I would just ignore the pacing all together and focus on staying in your Z2 HR during the run. Presumably your watch or phone is connected to some HR monitor (whether it's a wrist or chest strap) so you can set it to alert you when you're doing that. I would just go out a little slower than normal, try 10:30 and see how your HR reacts
- Part of the initial HR piece I've read is from the initial acclimation / adaptation to the higher heat and humidity, so it will start to come down. And when it gets cooler, you will do great.
Separate from your question about weather, I've been following 80/20 Endurance pretty religiously for 4 months now and have made extraordinary gains, much better than in any plan I've ever followed. I just did a 5k TT after 4 months at it (and essentially having run very sporadically for 4 years), and destroyed my 5K PR (23:00) from 4 years ago (24:50) when I was in consistent and good running shape. BUT a lot of this was because of the 20 part - meaning the times I go fast / hard. You have a lot of data and track it well, and you're probably really well in tune with your body, but might encourage getting to 20% Zone 3/4/5 a little sooner. It will help - especially for the HM goal, running more and longer in Zone 3 (in my Zone 3 terminology, that's getting to my Lactate Threshold Pace), will help you improve a TON. Do 1 of your 10Ks each week progressively incorporate Zone 3 - maybe 1 mile in week 1, 2 miles in week 2, etc. Three options: Put it in the middle of the run (e.g., 2.5miles Zone 2, 1 mile zone 3, 2.5 miles zone 2); put it at the end of the run like a progression run (e.g., 5 miles Zone 2, 1 mile Zone 3); break it up and do intervals (e.g., 1 mile Zone 2, 1 Mile Zone 3, .5 miles zone 2, 1 Mile Zone 3, etc.)
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u/CPanza01 Jun 08 '21
Hi Comfortable -
- I don't run by pace at all. I only run by zone and never run out of zone 2 if I'm not doing a high-intensity session (once a week). That said, I do track my pace on the blog, since I need my pace in zone 2 to get faster to reach my target goal.
- I use a Garmin HRM-run strap and my watch is set to zone and HR. It's definitely the case that my pace slows in the heat. That said, I'm not worried about that - but rather since my training involves tracking whether my pace is getting faster while in zone two, the slower pace in the heat throws off what I'm tracking. I don't mind going slower, but what I need to know is, basically - am I still making gains in zone 2? It could be that once I do a temperature adjusted pace and put it alongside other days, I am, even though my "real" pace has slowed. So it's not a worry about going faster, but really a need to keep tracking pace while in zone to see if I'm still progressing.
- I think your right on the high-intensity work. For the last two weeks I've eased into 90/10, replacing one 10k with an interval/high threshold run. Given my age (54) I've been trying to be careful with easing into those sessions out of fear of injury, though. That why I wanted to give the 90/10 a month, and then after that as long as everything is good, move to 80/20, with one more 10k replaced by a 4-5 mile tempo/progression run.
Thanks for the comments, and for reading my post at the blog!
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u/Comfortable-Plan2658 Jun 08 '21
I was thinking about this a little bit more and read your comments elsewhere. I would maybe suggest not focusing on your pace in zone 2 as reflection of fitness improvement but instead your LTHR tests that you run. I would also probably do those a little less frequently - maybe every 4-6 weeks. Every 2 weeks is too much. But that will be the best test of true fitness improvement.
Separately since you’re a true data nerd (as am I) I would highly recommend runalyze.com. I use that as a different indicator of fitness too since it has a (certainly inaccurate but at leas consistent approach) to estimating your VO2 Mac.
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u/JamesFattyHarden Jun 08 '21
Pfitz says if its low humidity in the 70s to add 6bpm to your zones to get the same aerobic effect. If its 80s low humidity or 70s high humidity he says to add 12bpm to your range to get the same aerobic effect.
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u/ManxDDS Jun 08 '21
I put this together after scraping many of the same sources listed by you and in the comments. I use it more as a “how hard might this be today” gauge vs “run this pace because it’s x degrees” prescription. At the end of the day every run has a purpose, be it a recovery jog or long MP/threshold session. Some days letting the body recover, some days pushing adaptations to running at certain paces. If you have identified the purpose, tied that to a perceived effort/HR over the course of continued training, this might help transition into the hotter days until equilibration.
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u/ManxDDS Jun 08 '21
In typical “skim and comment first, read later” fashion, I don’t think my answer is exactly what you were going for. Anyway, it’s up on here now. Below, some questions/comments:
Why the focus on the Z2 improvement? Are you building up to a race or just wanting to be faster in Z2? If you are focused on HR anyway, the pace in the heat shouldn’t matter too much until you can adapt.
I think there may be too many variables to control for to get a worthwhile “conversion”. Your RPE and pace are affected by incident light, wind, humidity, air temp, sleep, mood, diet, hydration, willofthegods, etc. How do you correct for the other factors? Do they matter?
I think if you throw something together like I have to help marry up the RPE to pace for yourself, it can be a helpful adjunct. As I mentioned, I hesitate to use it for prescription, but to project/reflect on effort for the day.
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Jun 08 '21
Living in France South West, it’s starting to get hot ( 33-34C). Running at 4.40am when i’m starting at 7. Empty city, fresh and “ cold “ air, 2nd favorite time i’m enjoying the most for running in France after beautiful cold but dry days in winter.
Ps: don’t understand how you guys are running past 10am :-) running -> first things in the morning!
Have fun
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u/Gumbode345 Jun 09 '21
I'm in Tokyo. Temperature today 31, morning at 20, high humidity, will only get hotter until 35 plus with 95 to 100% humidity. I'll be running very slowly as it doesn't really cool down overnight. Have already adjusted zones, will have to some more...
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u/MoonPlanet1 Jun 08 '21
I've seen some good stuff on this on fellrnr.com - it suggests the pace difference depends on what you're doing which sounds sensible to me (I can't imagine an all-out 800m would be significantly affected by heat, but a marathon would be). As always, run by feel
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u/herlzvohg Jun 08 '21
That site is full of pseudoscience and weird opinions. He thinks that threshold runs are an ineffective sort of training and that the optimal amount of running is 3-4 days per week. Its possible there is the odd useful tidbit on there but its buried amongst the weeds
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u/CPanza01 Jun 08 '21
I tried to follow some of what he's talking about regarding temperature but I had a hard time reading his tables - he has the columns properly marked, but the top row is not, and I couldn't figure out what it was measuring.
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u/_Wattage_Cottage Jun 08 '21
I just want to add that while I’ve been using the Max Performance chart for years I’ve concluded that it’s not enough of an adjustment for me. I’m 6’ 200 pounds and sweat buckets. If I only make the adjustment they recommend I inevitably blow up.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '21
What else is there to do besides try for yourself?Obviously the discrepancy between the two formulas suggests that people do not respond to heat in one totally predictable fashion, and I don’t think people necessarily respond in a linear fashion either. Why don’t you go out and run at 10 minute pace and see how your body responds compared to more recent and cooler runs?