r/ModCoord • u/Femilip • Jun 10 '23
Today's AMA With Spez Did Nothing to Alleviate Concerns: An Open Response
As of this posting, here are the numbers:
Subs 4,039
Mods 18,305
Subscribers 1,666,413,302
Given that you can’t assume that every mod in every participating subreddit supports the blackout; that is still a staggering number.
We organized this protest/blackout as a way for Reddit to realize how important our concerns were and are. Earlier today, u/spez took to the platform for an, “Ask Me Anything” session regarding API changes that left many of us appalled. None of the answers given resolved concerns. It failed to instill trust in Reddit’s leadership and their decisions.
Things continue to reach a boiling point and we continue to stress a resolution that all sides can live with. Reddit deserves to make money and third-party apps deserve to continue to operate, charging a nominal fee that doesn’t cripple them. NSFW content deserves parity. The blind deserve accessibility and it shouldn’t have taken a blackout to highlight this lack of support from Reddit.
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Below are things that need to be addressed in order for this to conclude.
- API technical issues
- Accessibility for blind people
- Parity in access to NSFW content
API technical issues
- Allowing third-party apps to run their own ads would be critical (given this is how most are funded vs subscriptions). Reddit could just make an ad SDK and do a rev split.
- Bringing the API pricing down to the point ads/subscriptions could realistically cover the costs.
- Reddit gives the apps time to make whatever adjustments are necessary
- Rate limits would need to be per user+appkey, not just per key.
- Commitment to adding features to the API; image uploads/chat/notifications.
Accessibility for blind people
- Lack of communication. The official app is not accessible for blind people, these are not new issues and blind and visually impaired users have relied on third-party apps for years. Why were disabled communities not contacted to gauge the impact of these API changes?
- You say you've offered exemptions for "non-commercial" and "accessibility apps." Despite r/blind's best efforts, you have not stated how they are selected. r/blind compiled a list of apps that meet users' access needs.
- You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do while providing value to your company by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue. Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?
Parity in access to NSFW content
- There have been attempts by devs to talk about the NSFW removal and how third-party apps are willing to hook into whatever "guardrails" (Reddit's term) are needed to verify users' age/identity. Reddit is clearly not afraid of NSFW on their platform, since they just recently added NSFW upload support to their desktop site. Third-party apps want an opportunity to keep access to NSFW support (see https://redd.it/13evueo)
____________________________________________________________________________
Today's AMA fell far short of restoring the trust that Reddit desperately needs to regain. It is imperative that Reddit demonstrates a genuine understanding and willingness to listen to the concerns of its users, mods, and developers affected by these changes. As a result, a blackout is currently scheduled to take place in just three days.
Many of you have expressed the desire for an indefinite blackout, and we urge you to actively engage with your users and make decisions that prioritize the best interests of your community, whether that blackout lasts two days or extends even longer.
We firmly believe that there is still an opportunity for Reddit to rectify its course, but it requires a concerted effort to reevaluate and reverse these unacceptable decisions. Regrettably, thus far, we have yet to witness any tangible evidence of such an undertaking.
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u/britinsb Jun 10 '23
Well done-hard to argue with any of that.
Given the way spez has behaved, I don't see how anyone can trust a single thing Reddit has said they will do.
In the same way, every single mod that volunteers their time now knows Reddit's admin will not hesitate to fuck you, dump you and smear you if they think it's in their best interests. How that affects your willingness to keep working for free to generate value for Reddit is similarly up to you.
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u/PepsiColaMirinda Jun 10 '23
In the same way, every single mod that volunteers their time now knows Reddit's admin will not hesitate to fuck you, dump you and smear you if they think it's in their best interests. How that affects your willingness to keep working for free to generate value for Reddit is similarly up to you.
I get this, 100%. But what makes it hard to abandon ship is that I'm doing this for the community or people who use my sub and not reddit. God bless the horny fucks, if you'd excuse my French, but I do this for them ultimately.
That said, we're also in discussions to take our 60k odd souls over to Discord if this keeps going this way.
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u/peddastle Jun 10 '23
Discord? That makes zero sense. That company is far more locked down than reddit. They go against everything the internet's openness stands for. Talk about a company that locks both you and your content in.
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u/wyronnachtjager Jun 10 '23
R/formula1 is transferring to discord as well. Really sad, since reddit did feel like cohesive mindhive, where you could find everything, and where you could go to other communities pretty easy…
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u/Jesterfish Jun 10 '23
Be careful, Discord will ban without warning or explanation, and will not value your privacy.
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Jun 10 '23
Most of us lost trust in Reddit when they deliberately hired someone with ties to child molestation and torture, and then refused to answer any questions about it from the community
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u/gothpunkboy89 Jun 10 '23
In the same way, every single mod that volunteers their time now knows Reddit's admin will not hesitate to fuck you, dump you and smear you if they think it's in their best interests.
Why have people ever thought differently?
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u/nattinthehat Jun 10 '23
What investor would even want to put their money into reddit after all this? The only value the site has is through its user generated content. It's clearly proven that it can't effectively collaborate with its users.
Even if reddit capitulates at this point, I as an investor would have some serious reservations on whether or not they could continue to maintain a healthy userbase after losing trust with the community. It sounds like AI companies have already trained their algorithms on reddit's data, so what's even the value of the existing data to most companies out there that might be interested in purchasing the site?
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Jun 10 '23
He had the gall to say old.reddit wasn't going anywhere, well 4 months ago you said the API wasn't going to change. Who would ever trust that idiot. Especially after he doubled down on attacking the Apollo dev without a shred of evidence.
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u/ev1lch1nch1lla Jun 10 '23
Based on spez's responses and actions, the only way I feel good about coming back is if Spez steps down and leaves the company.
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u/hovdeisfunny Jun 10 '23
Yeah, even if they end up walking back the API shit, this whole debacle has really put a sour taste in my mouth
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u/anticommon Jun 10 '23
Nearly 12 years and 200k karma, I won't be adding anything of value after the 30th. If I'm confident in another platform I'll simply delete my account here. I still get comments sometimes on old posts months or years later, and all that engagement will end and be deleted if this dirtbag doesn't get removed.
It's not much and I don't really matter to anyone on here or in the executive office at reddit, but I'm also not alone. /b/itch is not qualified to run a lemonade stand let alone reddit.
I've been a marine engineer and I'm going for my PE in electrical engineering. I've managed teams and helped designed laboratories and hospitals. I'd be willing to consult for whoever takes the burning bag of shit spez is leaving them with (when he inevitably gets canned and reddit is convulsing) for free just to help them unfuck this situation. Sure they need changes, but fuck if this isn't an absolute cluster of absolute idiocy that needs to be resolved by professionals who can actually take some heat and make the right long term decisions for the platform (assuming they want it to, you know, actually become something great). This is not one of them.
I'm a wholehearted believer that it's companies responsibility to give back to those who help raise them up, and these moves are an unbelievable FUCK YOU to everyone who contributed over the last decade plus. Especially considering the relative costs when compared to the rest of the platform, and how much value third party apps and access to the API brings in. Reddit is going to end up capping at a billion dollar company when they could be the next Facebook or Microsoft (size wise) for social media aggregation and actually have an opportunity to leave a positive impact on the world rather than becoming something disgraced and run down.
But you do you spez, you greedy little pigboy you. You won't be missed.
Note: I reposted this because /b/itch has automod set to call any ping to his name harassment. What a little pigboy 😂
12
u/_SP3CT3R Jun 10 '23
I have over 1,000,000 karma. I stopped posting and I am actively looking for a Reddit alternative.
5
1
u/jaxinthebock Jun 10 '23
Imagine if this place had competent management.... rather than ppl who are actively hostile to the business
1
Jun 11 '23
I've been a marine engineer and I'm going for my PE in electrical engineering.
Off topic but I work in healthcare and I was like "you're getting a pulmonary embolism in electrical engineering? please don't."
1
Jun 10 '23
5
u/AutoModerator Jun 10 '23
Nearly 12 years and 200k karma, I won't be adding anything of value after the 30th. If I'm confident in another platform I'll simply delete my account here. I still get comments sometimes on old posts months or years later, and all that engagement will end and be deleted if this dirtbag doesn't get removed.
It's not much and I don't really matter to anyone on here or in the executive office at reddit, but I'm also not alone. u/spez is not qualified to run a lemonade stand let alone reddit.
I've been a marine engineer and I'm going for my PE in electrical engineering. I've managed teams and helped designed laboratories and hospitals. I'd be willing to consult for whoever takes the burning bag of shit spez is leaving them with (when he inevitably gets canned and reddit is convulsing) for free just to help them unfuck this situation. Sure they need changes, but fuck if this isn't an absolute cluster of absolute idiocy that needs to be resolved by professionals who can actually take some heat and make the right long term decisions for the platform (assuming they want it to, you know, actually become something great). This is not one of them.
I'm a wholehearted believer that it's companies responsibility to give back to those who help raise them up, and these moves are an unbelievable FUCK YOU to everyone who contributed over the last decade plus. Especially considering the relative costs when compared to the rest of the platform, and how much value third party apps and access to the API brings in. Reddit is going to end up capping at a billion dollar company when they could be the next Facebook or Microsoft (size wise) for social media aggregation and actually have an opportunity to leave a positive impact on the world rather than becoming something disgraced and run down.
But you do you spez, you greedy little pigboy you. You won't be missed.
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u/andremeda Jun 10 '23
Spez is just the face of it, the real issue is would Reddit fix their shitty mobile app at all even if he did step down? Don’t lose sight of the real issue here
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u/asstalos Jun 10 '23
What people are implicitly hoping is spez stepping down results in someone with more care and sincere stewardship of Reddit take his place.
The first party mobile app is simply uncompetitive against third party offerings in feature set / sheet offering, but nonetheless has a huge chunk of Reddit traffic just due to being a first party offering.
Leadership involves investing in existing tools so they are efficient and serve user needs, not spending disproportionate amount of money on features that are contributing to Reddit's lack of profit (or spending in ways that are disproportionately inefficient; death by committee and group process is very much a real thing in large orgs if not actively tackled).
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u/Chapi_Chan Jun 10 '23
He's CEO, but the guys in power know he's a expendable CEO. Kleenex so to speak.
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Jun 10 '23
He literally edited people’s comments and all it took for people to forget was a TIFU post probably written by some PR manager. There’s a slim chance he steps down and this all becomes another forgotten event.
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Jun 10 '23
There have been multiple times during his tenure when that should have happened. Pretty wild that he’s still CEO, to be honest.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/willis936 Jun 10 '23
I fear there is an underlying issue of spez acting exactly the way the board want. Sure they could sacrifice him to the blood god but that would only satiate the schadenfreude.
We'd need to see something more dramatic than a CEO ouster to signal a reverse course. Regardless of what happens in the next few weeks the reddit we all joined is dead.
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u/Smelldicks Jun 10 '23
Lol, spez actually understands Reddit. You guys are playing with fire. It’s tough to axe a founder, but shareholders will have no qualms axing the next guy who’s not delivering profits fast enough. If spez relented here, wouldn’t that be a good sign he should stay? As opposed to a Pao who made changes, got replaced, and everyone was happy even though those changes weren’t reversed?
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u/mizmoose Jun 10 '23
I think folks are missing an important point. It's not just about "Reddit making money off the API."
I'm fine with the general concept of sites charging money for API access. Many of them do. They're just not insanely greedy about it. But let's go further.
Spez made it very clear in his few replies that he's angry that 3rd party app developers made money from the apps. Whether they are donations or a subscription fee, I don't think any one of those 3rd party devs, after the costs of their time and any server/hardware/bandwith/etc. costs, are making enough from their apps to quit their day job.
Let that sit for a moment. A guy who is worth at least $10M (based on a Google search) is angry at people who might, if they're lucky, be making $20k/year on an app.
At one point, a month or two ago, Spez made a comment about (paraphrased) "People shouldn't be making money off of a website's work." This is hilarious for two reasons
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The vast majority of people who "work" on improving Reddit overall are the moderators, the unpaid, oft abused, removed at a whim, long suffering moderators
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At the last Mod Summit, Spez blathered on about finding ways to "let moderators make money from their subs", something that was generally greeted with eye rolls and disbelief that it would ever happen, as well as recognition at how easily that could be abused. Many people suggested it was just another way for Reddit to use moderators to make more money for Reddit and maybe get a pittance as a thank you for it.
This isn't just about Reddit making money. This is about greed and selfishness.
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Jun 10 '23
Apollo has been a full time job for the last 8 years, so that‘s certainly not true.
But it‘s okay to be making money on a third-party app, it should not be free labour.
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u/mizmoose Jun 10 '23
You know, you're right. And even if it is a full time job, it's not like he's CEO of a big corporation.
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u/AardQuenIgni Jun 10 '23
Imagine making millions every year and still feel the need to steal 40k from some shmoe
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u/recipewince Jun 12 '23
Reddit is just a UI around a database of user contributed content. They have no right to prevent others from accessing that content using whatever the hell ui they choose. That data belongs to the contributors, and reddit should only be considered a custodian.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/AutoModerator Jun 10 '23
True, but he's making a normal person's salary, maybe slightly over median. Reddit could literally employ him and that would give him a raise. u/spez is fucking insane with this brain-dead take.
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u/asstalos Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23
I made a comment of similar lines elsewhere, in the sense that Reddit really believes it is entitled and deserves the revenue from the users who are using third party applications.
Spez sees third party applications as stealing Reddit revenue. The derision he voices towards them is definitely not in any belief that both Reddit and third-party applications can both be profitable, but rather Reddit isn't because third party applications are.
Hence why the API cost's majority is priced around the perceived opportunity cost of the user rather than in technical compute cost. It's all for Reddit to get what they think they are owed and rightfully deserve. So much of their rhetoric is around third party apps being bad internet stewards (because they are not profit sharing with Reddit), that they are "threatening" Reddit (because the revenue they are taking way becomes an existential threat to Spez's wallet), and so on comes not from any position of respecting what third party developers have done but out of spite.
Never mind the fact that users in third party applications are using them because they have no other good way to interact with Reddit (like people with disabilities), moderators who need the tools in these apps, and day to day users too.
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u/mizmoose Jun 10 '23
Spez sees third party applications as stealing Reddit revenue.
Exactly! And it's disturbing that he doesn't understand why that's a giant load of bullshit.
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u/Jinno Jun 10 '23
Especially when it was a big part of Reddit surviving the initial Mobile boom. They were exceedingly slow to build an app - and when they did they started from the base of the most popular third party app at the time that they shelled out to acquire.
This website would not have survived its highest period s of growth without third party API users creating the mod tools necessary to keep the largest subreddits remotely usable.
This website would not have been successful without third party developers using the API.
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u/Vresa Jun 10 '23
I think what is happening is that Reddit corporate is simply refusing to state the obvious or their real intentions, but it is clear from the statements they made. They do not care about third party apps at all, either way. They don’t care if they stay or go.
This whole thing is very pointed at the AI companies that are using Reddit’s api and are now worth much more than Reddit itself. That is who Reddit is targeting and that is why they are refusing to compromise with 3p devs.
I don’t think Reddit gave thought to the fallout from third party devs for even a moment. They are so clearly targeting this at other large corporations that have the capital to pay for the API, not a small handful of third party independent devs.
It’s not third party apps that does so clearly hates, though he is pissed that they are getting in the way. His rage is towards the AI companies that used the API to make a product that is much more valuable than Reddit. He wants to slam the door shut on the AI developers as quickly as possible. We will see Reddit taking AI companies to court before the end of the year.
Reddit just views third party apps a minor side thing which is why it is catching them so off guard that this change is fomenting so much open distain for the platform.
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u/lionstealth Jun 10 '23
If that were true, why would spez and other big wigs publicly and internally lie about their interactions with third party app developers.
If they didn’t care whether the apps stay or go, they’d have no reason to be dishonest.
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u/0neek Jun 10 '23
It's wild considering Reddit is entirely just users linking stuff from other websites and then discussing it here. Reddit doesn't provide anything special except what is now a well known spot for people to share and discuss stuff.
Reddit is the plate people put their food on, nobody goes to a restaurant for the plates.
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Jun 14 '23
You’re describing a public forum. Part of being that host is moderation, which is very important. Overall I agree but they do something
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Jun 10 '23
This isn't just about Reddit making money. This is about greed and selfishness.
This is a very important statement right here. What worries me here isn't the change itself, but rather the sentiment that it's driven by. What the current leadership of Reddit wants is so completely devoid of the vision that community has for the platform, that even if this doesn't succeed because of how drastic a change it is it won't matter much at all because of the changes that will be soon to follow.
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u/YourBonesAreMoist Jun 11 '23
At one point, a month or two ago, Spez made a comment about (paraphrased) "People shouldn't be making money off of a website's work." This is hilarious for two reasons
There is another reason:
That's very rich coming from the CEO of a site that, for the most part, aggregates content from other websites
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u/MalHeartsNutmeg Jun 10 '23
I don't think it's a personal wealth thing, I think it's more that these third party apps make money and reddit doesn't and he steers the ship. Feels like an ego thing.
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u/Vresa Jun 10 '23
I sincerely do not think Reddit gave a thought to third party apps before this week.
It’s the AI. It’s why they keep mentioning the AI. Reddit got all their data vacuumed up by AI companies which are now making viable, valuable products with it.
Reddit is desperate to charge the AI developers and make money. Third party apps got caught in the cross fire.
Reddit completely misunderstood how many power users adore third party apps and it is plainly clear that they had absolutely no foresight in to the blowback that would happen.
They just want to make money off AI scraping and do not care about any other topic
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Jun 10 '23
It’s the AI. It’s why they keep mentioning the AI. Reddit got all their data vacuumed up by AI companies which are now making viable, valuable products with it.
This is just a convenient excuse as to why they need to do it so quickly.
There are a billion other ways to protect against that kind of activity without jumping straight to the nuclear option.
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u/jusmar Jun 10 '23
to make money off ai scraping
Then why not make reasonable agreements with 3rd party browser developers? They only format the site in a way to make it accessible to more people, no AI sales.
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u/efrique Jun 11 '23 edited Jun 11 '23
"People shouldn't be making money off of a website's work."
All the content reddit makes its ad money off is generated by users and curated by unpaid moderators. He's really in no position to complain that the 3rd party developers make a little money to pay for their development time to actually make the site usable.
Well, I guess he gets to lose an absolute ton of money now.
Seems there's a lot of this dumb, self-defeating jealousy of people making relatively tiny amounts of money while they make your product better going around big companies lately (spez should have asked Hasbro how that jealousy went for them; they lost a ton of goodwill and are now worse off than if they'd done nothing at all; they'll be feeling the effects of it for years).
(Edit: what I am expressing badly is the common but mistaken notion that they're in a zero-sum game -- that anything someone else makes is money lost to them. The opposite is true; they're the dominant player in an ecosystem whose health they rely on for survival; hurting the ecosystem you're part of leaves you with a slightly larger fraction of a vestly smaller pie)
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Jun 10 '23
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u/Vresa Jun 10 '23
It’s because Reddit actually doesn’t care at all about these (comparatively) tiny apps. They aren’t even on reddits radar and they would let them do whatever they wanted. It isn’t worth the time to review or enforce anything around the API for these.
It’s the AI companies that Reddit is after. The ones that have used the Reddit API and pushshift to make LLMs that are now worth more than Reddit itself. That’s who they want to pay.
If Reddit had even a single competent third party app program manager, I suspect that could have avoided this whole thing entirely by giving the the big name third party apps a heads up and a Significant discount on pricing. But they did not have that foresight and cannot walk it back now
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u/Zavodskoy Jun 10 '23
14 comments he replied to, I've seen users of my sub reply to more comments than that on posts they've made
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u/Zagorath Jun 10 '23
My sub has had better records from boomer local politicians invited who weren't otherwise on Reddit than that.
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u/JuanFran21 Jun 10 '23
I've definitely made posts where I replied to more than 14 questions in the comments. Maybe I should be CEO?
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u/m1ndwipe Jun 10 '23
Well that's because they were carefully considered and drafted by PR professionals to help manage the situati... Lol, no, I can't keep that up.
They were the angry shitposts of a delusional manchild.
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u/Atulin Jun 10 '23
IIRC the questions he answered were mostly asked by powermods. Chances are, both the questions and the answers were set up beforehand
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u/quetejodas Jun 10 '23
I sorted by Q&A and still couldn't find any of his responses. It's like they want people to stop using reddit.
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u/_swnt_ Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23
Honestly, given the trend of Reddit in the past week I am sadly not surprised that this happened. It's hard to accept, but Reddit won't be listening to us.
We need to take our consequences seriously, and really try to move our communities into other community -owned and managed platforms such as Lemmy, kbin.social, etc.. See r/RedditAlternatives.
I really don't want to suggest this, but it's likely the most realistic option.
I don't expect any serious response to OPs letter to Reddit, as they've shown they don't have interest. Anything we'll get is just going to be corporate speak.
Finally, when many subs come online on the 14th, we should use the time to relax Moderation and just transition to other Reddit stuff.
What do you all think on this?
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u/sirvalkyerie Jun 10 '23
I posted exactly this in this subreddit a little bit ago.
We need all participating blackout subs to create communities and instances on Kbin / Lemmy / PillowFort / Squabbles and put those links in their subreddits and on their protest messages. We need to give our communities somewhere to go off of Reddit instead of allowing for copycat subs to spring up. This means that we can actually threaten Reddit's traffic and we don't have to punish our userbases and communities.
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u/LakeRat Jun 10 '23
The 3rd party app developers should also play a part in this. Once the api goes dark all of the 3rd party reddit apps apps should show a message explaining why the app no longer works and directing users to an alternative platform.
Ideally the apps would eventually make the switch to being a mobile app serving another platform but I realize that may take longer to accomplish.
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u/_swnt_ Jun 10 '23
Good! I had missed that.
I think it's important that we approach the lead mods and 3rd party Devs to make such coordinated announcements just like they did for the protest.
0
Jun 10 '23
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u/sirvalkyerie Jun 10 '23
Yeah I mean, I definitely don't think we can nor want to kill Reddit. But the only way I think we can carry our threats is if we show there's some appetite for getting communities to move to other platforms. Even Discord is fine. The point is getting people off of Reddit and keeping them off. Not just blacking out subs that get people to spend time on other subs or create alternatives.
That's my view anyway. I don't think we have to pick one new home, but subs going dark should encourage users to go to another community offsite. Whether that's Discord or a Reddit-like alternative
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0
Jun 10 '23
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u/sirvalkyerie Jun 10 '23
Yeah it's not going to work for every sub. But there's also no reason for us all to go to one specific site. We can spread around them for the time being. Not every member of our communities will follow either.
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u/DentateGyros Jun 10 '23
Yeah I think this is the end of the road. They’ll humor the 48h blackout and appoint new mods in whatever subs don’t come back online. They’re playing a game of chicken, betting that subs won’t stay dark, that people won’t leave, and that the new mods will be just as thanklessly dedicated as the current ones. And maybe they’re right, but the spiteful person in me is hoping they’ve made a grave miscalculation and that this site will turn into ash in their hands
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u/brickfrog2 Jun 10 '23
Finally, when many subs come online on the 14th, we should use the time to relax Moderation and just transition to other Reddit stuff.
Been thinking about that too. For the most part Reddit Inc seems to rely on volunteer moderators to deal with all the spam, copyright infringement, etc. Since they're insisting on collecting all that money for API access while diluting moderation tools then it makes sense that their own (paid) employees deal with all the trash that gets posted/commented regularly sitewide.
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u/chopsuwe Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 30 '23
Content removed in protest of Reddit treatment of users, moderators, the visually impaired community and 3rd party app developers.
If you've been living under a rock for the past few weeks: Reddit abruptly announced they would be charging astronomically overpriced API fees to 3rd party apps, cutting off mod tools. Worse, blind redditors & blind mods (including mods of r/Blind and similar communities) will no longer have access to resources that are desperately needed in the disabled community.
Removal of 3rd party apps
Moderators all across Reddit rely on third party apps to keep subreddit safe from spam, scammers and to keep the subs on topic. Despite Reddit’s very public claim that "moderation tools will not be impacted", this could not be further from the truth despite 5+ years of promises from Reddit. Toolbox in particular is a browser extension that adds a huge amount of moderation features that quite simply do not exist on any version of Reddit - mobile, desktop (new) or desktop (old). Without Toolbox, the ability to moderate efficiently is gone. Toolbox is effectively dead.
All of the current 3rd party apps are either closing or will not be updated. With less moderation you will see more spam (OnlyFans, crypto, etc.) and more low quality content. Your casual experience will be hindered.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/chopsuwe Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 30 '23
Content removed in protest of Reddit treatment of users, moderators, the visually impaired community and 3rd party app developers.
If you've been living under a rock for the past few weeks: Reddit abruptly announced they would be charging astronomically overpriced API fees to 3rd party apps, cutting off mod tools. Worse, blind redditors & blind mods (including mods of r/Blind and similar communities) will no longer have access to resources that are desperately needed in the disabled community.
Removal of 3rd party apps
Moderators all across Reddit rely on third party apps to keep subreddit safe from spam, scammers and to keep the subs on topic. Despite Reddit’s very public claim that "moderation tools will not be impacted", this could not be further from the truth despite 5+ years of promises from Reddit. Toolbox in particular is a browser extension that adds a huge amount of moderation features that quite simply do not exist on any version of Reddit - mobile, desktop (new) or desktop (old). Without Toolbox, the ability to moderate efficiently is gone. Toolbox is effectively dead.
All of the current 3rd party apps are either closing or will not be updated. With less moderation you will see more spam (OnlyFans, crypto, etc.) and more low quality content. Your casual experience will be hindered.
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u/Alissinarr Jun 10 '23
Many mods will be quitting, we may be a small user base, but if we mod, we probably do it on mobile, therefore we use 3rd party apps. Many communities will be shut down forever due to this, visible or not.
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u/The_Pip Jun 10 '23
Tumblr refugees, twitter refugees, now reddit refugees. Where does it end? Where can people go and just exist?
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u/chopsuwe Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 30 '23
Content removed in protest of Reddit treatment of users, moderators, the visually impaired community and 3rd party app developers.
If you've been living under a rock for the past few weeks: Reddit abruptly announced they would be charging astronomically overpriced API fees to 3rd party apps, cutting off mod tools. Worse, blind redditors & blind mods (including mods of r/Blind and similar communities) will no longer have access to resources that are desperately needed in the disabled community.
Removal of 3rd party apps
Moderators all across Reddit rely on third party apps to keep subreddit safe from spam, scammers and to keep the subs on topic. Despite Reddit’s very public claim that "moderation tools will not be impacted", this could not be further from the truth despite 5+ years of promises from Reddit. Toolbox in particular is a browser extension that adds a huge amount of moderation features that quite simply do not exist on any version of Reddit - mobile, desktop (new) or desktop (old). Without Toolbox, the ability to moderate efficiently is gone. Toolbox is effectively dead.
All of the current 3rd party apps are either closing or will not be updated. With less moderation you will see more spam (OnlyFans, crypto, etc.) and more low quality content. Your casual experience will be hindered.
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Jun 10 '23
We need to stop putting our time and effort into digital roach motels or we’ll have the same problem with a different name.
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u/MisterMegatron Jun 10 '23
I think Discord said it best during their outage:
Time to go outside, everyone.
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u/_swnt_ Jun 10 '23
Yes and no. It's now an important time to use the coordination to actually use the momentum to get the mods and early users onto other platforms.
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u/MisterMegatron Jun 10 '23
Fair point. If I decide there's a place in my life for a Reddit alternative, squabbles.io seems to fill that best.
However, the situation as a whole has shown me that without Reddit (specifically Infinity for Reddit), I have a lot more free time to do things IRL instead of in front of a screen
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u/L0neStarW0lf Jun 11 '23
I’m not gonna lie when I first joined Reddit I did it for the porn but now I also come here for Fanfiction, subs like r/BokunoheroFanfiction and r/HPfanfiction and r/TheCitadel etc etc have made my bookmarks on AO3 go from a few dozen to several hundred AND I’ve recently started asking people for advice when writing my own stories (and they’ve all been very very helpful), I am not looking forward to having to find an alternative to that especially since I mostly use the official Reddit App and most of the Alternatives don’t have Apps.
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u/nnamed_username Jun 11 '23
Not a mod, but thank you for the link. I've been looking for an alternative. For a couple of hours to go find a new hole to dive into.
So tired of spez. All these years. I'm curious how he'd fare if reddit shuts down and he has to go get a new job? "I see here you were the head of reddit... I remember reading about that in-depth, and it all came down to your stubborn decision. Care to elaborate? You had a great company, nearly 20% of the earth's population as users, yet you managed to destroy it with your pride... .... Oh, you want to know why did I grant you this interview? Because I have a morbid curiosity to hear this BS from the horse's mouth."
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u/StPauliBoi Jun 10 '23
Hey, let’s bring it back to Rampart.
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Jun 10 '23 edited Jul 01 '23
This comment has been deleted.
After 12 years, I have departed Reddit. My departure is primarily driven by my deep concerns regarding the actions of u/spez . The recent events have left me questioning the commitment to transparency and fairness on this platform. I believe it is important for users to have a voice and for their concerns to be heard.
I want to express gratitude to Chat GPT for assisting in composing this message. AI technology has immense potential to enhance our interactions.
To all fellow Redditors, thank you for the engaging debates and insightful conversations. It has been an honor being part of this community.
Best wishes 7/1/2023
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Jun 10 '23
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Jun 10 '23
An AMA an actor made around the time his newest movie, Rampart, was releasing. Any time somebody asked a question not related to Rampart was asked, he would either make it about Rampart or ask them to make it about Rampart.
People started to call it an AMAAR (Ask Me Anything About Rampart) and said it was the worst AMA ever.
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Jun 10 '23 edited Jul 01 '23
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u/BuckRowdy Jun 10 '23
I for one appreciate that. It doesn’t help to be caustic in public. Thank you for your support.
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u/demosthenes131 Jun 10 '23
I mean, the changes Reddit would have to make are so easy that it is just obvious they don't want to split the profits. They want it all.
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u/I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM Jun 10 '23
They would make more money if they just figured out how to monetize the third party users. Apollo is a great experience and I'm more than willing to pay for it, but the reddit team is completely incompetent and doesn't understand their platform.
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u/SexualMastadon Jun 10 '23
I doubt this will get seen by many, but Reddit C-Suite are missing an opportunity to slowly change into the kind of model that’s bound to replace them: one where the content aggregation and front-ends exist separately, like BlueSky or Lemmy.
If they were to follow the suggestions in this post, they could setup Reddit for the next decade or so by making Reddit the content platform and allowing anyone to design an app to work with it. Enforce ads, unless users pay a premium charge, and allow third-party developers to manage the front end. Instead, they’re making choices that will send this community the way of Digg, Twitter, Tumblr, and so many others.
It’s insane to me that it’s taken the community to offer up a solution that is a thoughtful negotiation between both sides. Less insane, and sadly all too predictable, is how these wet behind the ears, MBA, “if-it-ain’t-broken, break it” stooges are making these asinine decisions.
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u/JBHUTT09 Jun 10 '23
The c-suite don't care. At all. Their goal is to make reddit look super profitable, sell it, and be done with it. They don't give a shit if it burns behind them.
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u/PhillyAdjacentSubMod Jun 10 '23
I believe the admins will forcefully hand over dark subs to willing moderators. I think moderators should consider an alternative - come back online after the 2 day blackout, but "quiet quit". Don't moderate. Let the spam stay up. Let the scams stay up. Let users violate every rule. Don't report hate speech to admin, let it fester. Let it all turn into a cesspool. I don't think the admins could actually effectively address that.
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u/Meepster23 Jun 10 '23
Why should we care? If they want to run the site into the ground, why would I want to mod for them?
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u/PhillyAdjacentSubMod Jun 10 '23
That's kind of my point. Don't. Let's help them burn it down.
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u/Meepster23 Jun 10 '23
Forgive me, my eyes absolutely glazed over somehow and I either read another comment after your first line or something I don't even know.. I'm with ya know.
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u/StPauliBoi Jun 10 '23
Why would they forcibly replace mods in the first scenario but not in the second?
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u/desdendelle Jun 10 '23
I don't know about you, but I don't want to expose my users to more bigoted filth than they are already exposed to.
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u/PhillyAdjacentSubMod Jun 10 '23
I mean yeah, don't most mods feel that way? Isn't that why everyone is protesting in the first place? But if admin is going to make our jobs harder by removing the 3rd party apps that make modding easier, then maybe it's just hard enough that we can't do it. 🤷
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Jun 10 '23
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u/PhillyAdjacentSubMod Jun 10 '23
Yup I also think it's 100% what they meant by that. Any of these subs talking about doing an indefinite blackout – I get where they're coming from, I don't disagree. But I don't think it's going to go the way any of us want.
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u/johnsadventure Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23
I’m personally expecting Reddit to break/restrict/remove the option to make subs private before Monday. A code change regarding permissions or availability of the feature would be easier than trying to moderate large subs themselves.
Edit: inb4 “don’t give them ideas!” - I’m slow and dumb. If I thought of this I’m sure someone else already has.
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u/jaxinthebock Jun 10 '23
I think they could try mod replacement, but how long could it possibly last? The whole point is that moderating is to become impossible given the limitations of available tools. The current mods say they can't do it so there's no reason to believe new ones would be able to.
Moderation is such a hard problem, even if you try to be like facebook and pay people to do it. Reddit has been getting it for free all these years, they do not even understand what they have.
I posted the other day about an email I got from stackoverflow trying to recruit me to scab on their striking moderators. Even if I decided to have a go at it, what are the odds that I'd be any good? I do not know anything about how that site is run. I can only guess what a shit show must be going on if they are just letting any jackass off the street moderate. Who will guide and train the new mods, on SOF or reddit? And how will they handle the job when the useful tools are prohibited?
Reddit might try to recruit new mods. They might woo some existing mods back by making some concessions. They might even try paying people to do it. But it will not last very long because it seems like they have stumbled into a huge battle without having made any preparations.
Honestly from a strategic POV, they should have just bought Apollo for $10mil because then there would be a chance that they could clear house and get people who see things their (demented) way installed. But now they have destroyed that chance and are totally flat footed.
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u/agent_flounder Jun 10 '23
I don't see how that can be taken any other way especially in light of all the other poor decisions they have made in the past.
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u/ElectronGuru Jun 10 '23
This is about the IPO and the perception that controlling eyeballs will yield a more successful IPO. Everything else is noise. The extent to which reddit will allow uncontrolled eyeballs is and will remain limited to obligations needed to legally conform with the disabilities act. A solution they are happy to ‘let’ others provide for free.
The only user or mod actions that will yield results are actions that can sustainably reduce eyeball control. That’s 2023 Reddit’s only pain point.
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u/stagfury Jun 10 '23
You know what makes for a good IPO? A company with good PR and competent management
Can you imagine any listed company having some incompetent dipshit like spez as CEO?
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u/ImSabbo Jun 10 '23
Can you imagine any listed company having some incompetent dipshit like spez as CEO?
Twitter?
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u/rchiwawa Jun 10 '23
3 hours of readingthe AMA and my plan remains to log-out forr the last time on all devices the night of June 30. still undecided on deleting all posts and comments
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u/PhillyAdjacentSubMod Jun 10 '23
This is where I'm at. Losing 15 years of history is sad, but I think deleting is necessary too.
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u/LucasSatie Jun 10 '23
still undecided on deleting all posts and comments
I've been looking for, and have yet to find, a service that would allow me to edit & remove all my engagement except from some few specified communities. I'd really like to leave behind my comments in a few support subreddits.
But I've yet to find a service like that. So far they all work in the opposite fashion where you specify which to remove from, not which to save.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/Best-Expert Jun 10 '23
Dude no you gotta make it more detailed so that in future anyone who comes to your post or comment by search will understand.
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u/CopernicusQwark Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 11 '23
Comment deleted by user in protest of Reddit killing third party apps on July 1st 2023.
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u/Prisoner-of-Paradise Jun 10 '23
Is there a quick way to do this, or does it have to be done comment by comment?
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u/Lilchubbyboy Jun 10 '23
I know I am not a mod, but can I say:
Come Commrades, you have nothing to lose but your digital chains
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u/MrRenegado Jun 10 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
This is deleted because I wanted to. Reddit is not a good place anymore.
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u/NatoBoram Jun 10 '23
Third-party apps should be able to ask you for application tokens, I'm not sure why they aren't making that change
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u/highlyregardedeth Jun 10 '23
I’m not a mod or anything, but what incentive is there to be a mod? If you aren’t getting paid, and the users don’t respect you, then what exactly are you getting for your time?
Like, if your work is essential to the day to day operations of Reddit shouldn’t you be entitled to minimum wage at the very least? Couldn’t you all class action Reddit for back pay as mods for years of service x minimum wage x hourly commitment every day?
Like, why don’t you all unionize and fight for the user like tron? A lot of people see you all as self serving, entitled, out of touch(their words not mine)…I think if you were paid to mod, the hate would be towards the man, not you all, you know?
Anyways, epic list of subs, I’m curious to see how it all plays out.
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Jun 10 '23
Some people are simply passionate for a certain community and feel that moderating offers them a methodology for giving back. Maybe someone who is a fan of a sports team, or a game, or an animal would like to help moderate a like-minded community to help spread their enthusiasm in a personally-meaningful way.
Can’t attest for the more abstract/generic subs, but I’d imagine this is also why more specific subreddits tend to have more down-to-earth, personal relationships with their users.
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u/kentucky210 Jun 10 '23
I've been a mod of the wrestling sub r/squaredcircle for like 8 years at this point and this is pretty much it. I love wrestling and the community in general and modding it has been pretty rewarding. Hell I got the chance to talk to an Idol of mine in Dan Severn when we got him booked for an AMA which blew my mind at the time. I don't think a lot of the mods want payment, just want our lives as unpaid volunteers to not be more stressful.
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u/TheFrustrated Jun 10 '23
Man, I browse r/squaredcircle more than any other subreddit. It's such a fun community. And it's probably one of the best places on the internet for wrestling news, clips, results, and discussions. I appreciate the work you do.
Here's hoping things work out for squaredcircle and the whole wrestling community.
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u/ReginaBrown3000 Jun 10 '23
I would absolutely not be moderating if it wasn't for my two related communities, which I care about. I'm not doing this for Reddit. I'm doing it for my communities.
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u/sadandshy Jun 10 '23
I became a mod kinda organically. The mods at r/goldrush weren't getting the show threads up in time, so I just started doing them for fun. Eventually they asked me if I would join the mod team, and I said sure, as long as I don't have to really do anything. I was given partial mod access, and 10 days later I had to ban my first ne'er do well.
That was 4 years ago. The other mods have drifted away, I'm the last one left. Somehow, I recently got full mod access. I don't even know how, or really when. So my first real act as a full mod is probably shutting the sub down for a protest. Which is crazy.
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u/highlyregardedeth Jun 10 '23
That makes sense I suppose. Although, I don’t quite understand how a sub with more than a few thousand users can have a community feel since the subs are so large and impersonal.
Like, first contact for a new user is by auto mod, their first post comment auto mod, their first message probably auto mod. Even talking to the mods through mod mail is impersonal, it’s essentially one or two words followed by “mods have spoken”.
Have you been doing it long? Like, do you think other users share the same passion and might want a chance to do what you do? I guess what I’m asking is, could you stop being a mod and just be a regular member again?
If not, why?
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Jun 10 '23
I mean, Reddit is but a glorified array of forums, dedicated to interests and/or ideas. Ideally, moderators are just fellow community members taking on a volunteer role. This isn't an apt comparison, but you could equate it to volunteering at a soup kitchen or animal shelter simply because you find it to be the right thing to do (opportunity cost notwithstanding).
In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a fundamental difference between a moderator and a 'regular member' of a subreddit - you're more likely to ensure that all parties are on the same page.
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u/AmericanScream Jun 10 '23
Also there's a huge elephant in the room that we need to talk about: UNIONIZATION.
Reddit mods should form a union.
It's funny that they're monetizing everything but still not even contemplating paying the tens of thousands of UNPAID WORKERS who are primarily responsible for the content of their site.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/learhpa Jun 10 '23
Y'all are our brothers and sisters and every bit as much a part of the community as we are. Reddit is f-----g you over and it's not ok.
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Jun 10 '23
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u/uberafc Jun 10 '23
They probably do agree with reddit. I feel the same way about any of the subs not participating unless they are a support sub. Even than they can at least put up a pinned announcement on their sub.
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Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
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u/Lilchubbyboy Jun 10 '23
I think subs should go dark regardless, you have to remember the optics of that maneuver. As many subs as possible should go dark, then if Admins decide to step up to the challenge and force them back open, you can generate a lot of protest positive reaction by spinning it in the right way to news sites/YouTube/whatever. You want to spread this story as far as possible so you also reach the people who don’t actively use Reddit, but still interact with it by way of googling/ YouTube.
These changes also affect those people and we want them on our side.
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