Weekly Thread #212 - Games that are Borderline VNs

[u/AutoModerator]

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Automod-chan here, and welcome to our two hundred and twelfth weekly discussion thread!

Week #212 - General Thread: Games that are Borderline VNs

It's general thread time! This week's topic is games that are borderline VNs. What is your definition of a visual novel? Do you agree with the vndb definition? Are there some games that aren't visual novels under that definition that should be considered ones? What are your thoughts on the telltale games (such as the walking dead) and how they relete to visual novels? What about walking simulators? This is the thread to discuss the grey edges of visual novels and games that are visual novel adjacent. Disucss whatever you want related to the topic, it's a general thread!

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As always, thanks for the feedback and direct any questions or suggestions to the modmail or through a comment in this thread.

Next week's discussion: Visual Novel Romances

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^{History & Archives | 2018 Schedule}

[u/gamblingDostoevsky]

(The mods told me that this would be an appropriate place for some shameless self-promotion, so here I go)

Supposedly Wonderful Future is a narrative sci-fi game that I describe as "plays like an adventure, reads like an RPG, and feels like a VN". 90-95% of your time is spent reading, but your do it through dialogue trees, always choosing the MC’s next response from a short list of options, and the remaining 5% feature some light point-and-click exploration.

Here’s a synopsis:

It's 2048, and life has never been better. Humanity is thriving, technology is booming, poverty and hunger are all but eradicated. Wars and unrest are the talks of the past; the world is as united as it's ever been. Aging can be stopped while terminal illnesses are conquered one by one - you don't have to die if you don't want to. Too bad many folks never lived to see the day.

Michael is one of those folks, a bright twenty-something destined to meet his end before wonders of science can save him. But maybe it doesn't have to be this way. Back in 2018, an unlikely visitor appears, claims that she has traveled back in time, and that Michael can join them in the future - if only he does some work first…

Genre-wise, it's a social and fairly grounded sci-fi story that aims to ask questions about where we might be in 30 years' time and builds its drama around various problems that haunt people even in such seemingly thriving, highly-developed society. There's also some attempt at humor which, I'm happy to report, a lot of players found genuinely funny.

The script size is 125K words, and the length would be between 3-10 hours (a decent amount of stuff is optional, hence the wide range). The game is also 50% off on Steam for the rest of the weekend (which makes it 5 USD or your regional equivalent). If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer. Thanks for your time!

Links

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefx8XugpmU

Steam page: http://store.steampowered.com/app/719210

Review: http://www.cubed3.com/review/4894/1/supposedly-wonderful-future-pc.html

Let's play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRF0Cx2LPO4&list=PLV0o1nXCAcPTkORgdDu1RmLaQk78pBC8A

[u/woodcarbuncle]

I want Ghost Trick in VNDB just so more people can discover it. It's the closest thing I would consider to a perfect game.

[u/Diabhalri → u/woodcarbuncle]

I feel like the line between Ghost Trick's style of point-and-click adventure and a VN like, say, Ace Attorney is VERY thin and very blurry. If Ace Attorney is a visual novel despite most of the gameplay being a point and click puzzle game, but Ghost Trick isn't despite having multiple VN elements... how are we judging these exactly?

That said, Ghost Trick is fantastic. It's far from a perfect game, but it's a very solid one.

[u/[deleted]]

VNDB's guidelines on some things are fucking weird. A lot of exceptions are made that don't make a whole lot of sense.

Ar Tonelico is a pure RPG. I don't think there's any doubts about that. However, because of the Cosmosphere sections, it's included on VNDB, despite the fact that they make up a negligible amount of game time and have no narration (as far as I know).

Outside of the H-scenes, Mamatoto is purely dialogue based. The way in which the narrative is presented resembles Battle Moon Wars (which was removed) or Super Robot Wars (which was never even suggested, as far as I know) more than Rance, but it needs to be included because Alice Soft.

Then you've got Shin Megami Tensei/Persona. I have some very strong opinions on this, so stick with me.

First of all, Shin Megami Tensei is the name of a subseries within the Megami Tensei series. So, does that mean that the NES games and the Last Bible games are okay? The only titles ever submitted were Nocturne, Giten Megami Tensei, and Persona 3/4. The games aren't completely void of narration, and the text presentation in the earlier games is practically NVL style.

And let's talk about Persona for a second. The PS1 games definitely aren't visual novels, the PS2 games still aren't and P5 isn't. However Persona 3 Portable uses a significant amount of visual novel style storytelling, including narration. If a single release is enough to qualify Baldr Heart EXE, Melty Blood, and Corpse Party, why isn't Persona 3 there?

There just seems to be no consistency here.

[u/MiauMiaut → u/[deleted]]

The Cosmospheres are so VN that in the first game Shurelia's sphere is a parody of high school VNs.

Interacting with the girls and solving their problems within are also the unlocks for items and outfits; not from the combat events.

[u/[deleted]]

[rise] (https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/11/115901/2125695-risep4g.png) best girl

[u/Cattyguy1 → u/[deleted]]

You're forgetting this cutie

[u/[deleted]]

To me, whether something is a VN or not depends strongly on feeling. Is it strongly focused on the story/reading? It may as well be a VN at that point. In cases where titles have gameplay, the amount of gameplay is put on a balance system with the story. If story doesn't outweigh the gameplay, I don't really consider it a VN.

I would consider Kamidori more of a VN than Ar Tonelico, for example.I think the former tries more to be a VN with gameplay than the later which tries to be an RPG with some VN features.

I'm not sure how I feel about VNDBs definition of VNs though. I feel like what they choose to include and not include on the database can be dumb. In particular, I remember being somewhat upset they took ZTD off, but have kept things like Persona 4 Dancing and Ar Tonelico. While the mechanics of ZTD might be different, I feel like it tries to get at what people play VNs for more than those other two titles. Not to mention ZTD is part of a series in which two other entries are in the database. It bugs me that as a source of information it doesn't even mention it as a sequel.

[u/yoshinanase]

I'm just here to shill for everyone to play 1bitheart. It's like danganronpa with simpler gameplay, and you can befriend over 50 characters. I'd say you might like it if you enjoyed Persona 3-5, TWEWY, Danganronpa, or Ace Attorney. I know it's on VNDB but I still don't really count it as a VN so I try not to shill it too much but I adore the game. It's one of those games you play that give you a fluffy feel-good feeling.

Also if you do play it: Do not touch the sequel with an 11-foot pole. It's terrible.

If you want to opt for something more despair inducing I recommend Hello Charlotte. It's a Wolf RPG game but honestly it's like 90% story and 10% walking to where you need to go. (Except episode 2 has worthless random battles when you're in school that play like the game Off) It's soul crushingly depressing. It makes you think a lot about life. The plot fucks with you, especially in episode 3. I'd say more but then I'd be going into spoiler territory. Episode 1 is free on Itch.io, and the other 2 are like, 3 bucks on steam. The creators also making a VN that's an AU for Hello Charlotte, and i'm sure that'll be just as depressing knowing the shit the creator pulls and just... what characters it seems to be centering around. Delirium should be played after Episode 2 for anyone curious, but you don't really need to play that game since it's a parody game that's like an AU I guess.

[u/JackItBros]

I think the VNDB admins just have their heads a bit too far up their own asses when it comes down to what is or isn't a VN.

Frankly, if the core mechanic of the game is to deliver a story through dialogue and/or written text, it's a VN, regardless of what other features are at play.

Franchises like Ace Attorney and Danganronpa have text delivery as a primary goal. The trial mechanic is simply a means of getting more text through presenting evidence or pressing for info - only slightly more complex than selecting a choice that interrupts progression. By extension, the point-and-click elements of their investigation phases are again just a complex means of getting the right texts so the story progresses so you can see more texts. The same holds true for the Zero Escape games*: You complete the puzzles so you can see more text; you don't rush through the text just to get to a new set of puzzles.

The same isn't true for something like Persona, even with its VN-like elements: Everything is in service of progressing the RPG elements. Get through the text, get rewarded with new dungeons to crawl. Spend time with your social links/confidants, get new skills or demons to use in your dungeon crawling. I'd argue the same is true for spinoffs like Persona 4 Arena, but somehow VNDB disagrees.

*Zero Time Dilemma is a special case here; while the formula is largely the same, the presentation differs. By default the text is still there, so why should VNDB exclude it as being a visual novel? Because of the way the text is presented? Because the text can be disabled, even if the accompanying dialogue can't? Because there are some janky cutscenes accompanying the text? The goal is still delivery of its plot with the gameplay elements being secondary, and I don't really think its presentation disqualifies it as being a visual novel any more than the others.