r/visualnovels • u/AutoModerator • Jun 09 '18
Weekly Weekly Thread #202 - Umineko no Naku Koro ni Spoiler
Hey hey!
Automod-chan here, and welcome to our two hundred second weekly discussion thread!
Week #202 - Visual Novel discussion: Umineko no Naku Koro ni
This will cover both the Umineko no Naku Koro ni as well as Umineko no Naku Koro ni chiru
Umineko no Naku Koro ni is a visual novel developed by 07th Expansion in 2007. It is the 3rd highest rated visual novel on VNDB as of June, 2018 and #15 in popularity. Originally released in 8 separate releases as chapters at comiket, it is now sold as 2 releases commercially. This remains one of the most popular VNs outside of Japan, as well as on this subreddit.
To help promote discussion these discussion threads, Mangagamer has kindly offered us a discount code for redditors who want to buy Umineko so they can read through it before the discussion. Use the code RVNSWKLYDSCUMIQUESTION for a 30% discount when buying The Questsions Arc from Mangagamer, and the code RVNSWKLYDSCUMIANSWER for a 25% discount on the answer arc. A big thanks to Mangagamer for helping promote these discussions.
Synopsis:
Umineko no Naku Koro ni takes place in the year 1986 during the time frame of October 4 and October 5 on a secluded island named Rokkenjima (六軒島). The head of a wealthy family named Kinzō Ushiromiya, who lives on and owns Rokkenjima, is near death, and eleven of his family members arrive on the island to discuss how Kinzō's assets will be divided once he is dead. Also on the island are five of Kinzō's servants, and his personal physician. After the eleven family members arrive, a typhoon traps them on the island and shortly after people start to get mysteriously murdered.
Upcoming Visual Novel Discussions
June 9 - Umineko no Naku Koro ni
June 16 - Utawarerumono Trilogy
June 23 - Kara no shoujo series
To help promote discussion these discussion threads, Mangagamer has kindly offered us a discount code for redditors who want to buy Kara no Shoujo series so they can read through it before the discussion. If you want to buy the games separately, Use the code RVNSWKLYDSCKARANSHJO for a 30% discount when buying Kara no Shoujo, the code RVNSWKLYDSCCARTAGRA for a 25% discount on Cartagra, and the code RVNSWKLYDSCKARANSHJ2 for 25% discount on Kara no Shoujo 2 all from Mangagamer. If you want to buy the games in a bundle, there is a discount on Kara no Shojo & Cartagra Bundle for 30% discount with the code RVNSWKLYDSCKNSBUNDLE. A big thanks to Mangagamer for helping promote these discussions.
As always, thanks for the feedback and direct any questions or suggestions to the modmail or through a comment in this thread.
Next week's discussion: Utawarerumono Trilogy
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u/JustiguyBlastingOff Jun 09 '18
I'm not sure I could call Umineko the best VN I've ever read, and I'm not even sure "favorite" would be the right word - though it is without question the one that's left the strongest, longest lasting impact on me, as both a visual novel reader and a hopeful visual novel developer/writer as well.
Umineko managed to do so many things as a visual novel that you would think, looking at the industry, would be impossible to pull off. As a title with no choices, awkward art, no sex, and so much of what you think of when Joe Everyman might think of a VN just not there, it managed to create a tremendous following that spanned the entire globe while it was still releasing in Japan.
It might not have the hype of a title like Muv Luv behind it, but it was able to ignite the passion of many, many people with characters, stories, and music, woven together in a mystery that had us all enthralled, debating, and so much more for years. In the end, it was Umineko that got me wanting to pursue VN development as well.
I'm not sure what I can say about it to put it into words - I suppose the most appropriate thing would be to say that, yeah, I goddamn love Umineko.
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u/jordanwu Jun 09 '18
I only pretty recently finished Umineko, and it was a truly amazing read. Memorable characters, one of the best OSTs I've ever had the pleasure of listening to and a complex and engaging story that encouraged me to actively think about the mystery/themes made the almost 200 hours I spent totally worth it. There are a lot of moments/scenes I loved, but if I had to pick a few it would be EP 1's ending (amazing cliffhanger which completely hooked me by that point), EP 4's and 7's Tea Parties, EP 5's trial and EP 8 in its entirety (particularly the heartwarming scenes at the beginning). There were some occasions of slow pacing like others have said but honestly it wasn't something that really bothered me due to how much I enjoyed it. What I can say with absolute certainty is that I won't be forgetting my time with Umineko anytime soon.
EP 8>5>4>3>6>1>2 would be my personal ranking. Still do not know where to place EP 7 since I felt slightly underwhelmed(?)/didn't click with me for some reason after finishing it. I think the Tea Party might have saved the episode for me, but I definitely think I should give it a re-read some time in the future.
Just curious; what were others' favourite moments in Umineko?
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u/CptDanaKS Jun 10 '18
I agree whole heartedly with the episode 1 cliffhanger moment. some other notable moments for me have to be in EP1 first twilight, Kinzo's closed room battle in episode 5, and Beatrice Protecting Jessica from EVAtrice during the climax of Episode 3(Even if it was a troll the whole time I still see myself coming back to reread this one scene.)
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u/Wazhai Jun 09 '18
I still listen to Umineko's soundtrack from time to time because I found it to be really enjoyable and memorable. My most favourite tracks from it are the—what I presume are with my very limited knowledge of electronic music—energetic and melodic trance pieces like Mirage Coordinator, Lastendconductor or The Executioner of which there are about a dozen in the OST. I don't listen to electronic music otherwise so I tried to discover some similar "real" non-game music but nothing I heard on the Spotify radios I gave a shot came even close for me. None of them had this much (or at all the) variety, melody, energy or use of traditional instruments like orchestras, pianos and harpsichords. They all sounded boring in comparison and didn't catch my ear in any way.
So I'm wondering if anyone can point me to some similar music? What exact genre could something like this be? Any albums, artists or other OSTs that have a similar sound? Thanks!
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u/Rastagong Jun 09 '18 edited Jun 09 '18
A pretty natural starting point would be zts' music in general! Outside of Umineko, he's made a lot of electronic music, and it all sounds very similar to the tracks you listed.
From what I understand, some of these tracks were even used in the soundtrack of other doujin VNs.You can legally purchase digital downloads of his albums on his stores.jp shop! It works really well even outside Japan. It can be hard to navigate though, so I recommend checking out the complete list of his albums on his website first, and then searching for an album you'd like on the actual shop (there's a search function if you click on the magnifying glass on the top-left corner).
I'm not well-versed in the electronic/trance genre though, but I've noticed it's common in video game soundtracks and remixes.
You might like some of the tracks used in the IIDX rhythm game series (not quite the genre you seek, but here's a favourite of mine). Likewise, in the Touhou fandom, you'll find a number of remixes in the electronic/trance genre. I'm thinking you might like the remixes of Rin / Kuroneko Lounge. I'd recommend checking out some albums on Youtube first.It might seem weird to hover around the work of small fandom/doujin artists, but I think it's actually the field in which you'll find artists most similar to zts! I promise a lot of them are very talented. Though I'm sure there are pertinent recs in the more mainstream trance scene too.
Hope it helps!
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u/WHY_DO_I_SHOUT Jun 10 '18 edited Jun 10 '18
I think you may like orchestral uplifting trance, a subgenre of uplifting trance. It's my favorite music genre. I recommend an artist called SoundLift in particular.
In fact, you might want to check out my YouTube channel. I have compiled playlists of my favorite music. Out of my playlist series, "S9uareHead's Trance Selection" (duh), "S9uareHead's Electronic Music Selection" and "Too Little Known Eletronica" contain uplifting trance.
Here's a list of SoundLift's trance tracks I have included in my playlists, i.e. my favorites:
Also, another track from The Blizzard you may like: Mike Foyle - Pandora (The Blizzard Remix). Its intro and outro are mediocre, but the breakdown, the rise, and the peak are fantastic.
Edit: it's not quite trance, but Jean Michel Jarre's live performances may also be to your liking.
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Jun 09 '18
Umineko is quite the experience. Being a 75+ hour experience, it has tons to offer in terms of story-telling and character writing. Many scenes are crafted with a lot of care to deliver them in an effective manner. Different people have different scenes as their favorite, showing Ryukishi07's ability to write scenes and characters we care so much about. The audio as aspect of Umineko added much more to the overall experience, with the tracks giving more emotions to the events and the voice acting making Umineko feel more raw and real.
However, given its length, it's kind of unfortunately that it falls under some pacing issues, at least for me. Some scenes either drag on for too long, or it takes the story too long to get to the point. The pacing, which can become rather annoying, doesn't really detract from the overall experience, but it still blemishes an otherwise well-written story.
Umineko is by no means my favorite VN. And yet, it presents many ideas and themes I still hold dearly. It's an amazing philosophical piece that presents its narrative in a complex manner. And for that, I shall conclude with:
I will always remember Umineko
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u/Bushido_Plan Jun 09 '18
I love the series. Two experiences stood out the most for me: the very first time I got into the series at episode 1 and the transition from Tea Party of episode 4 into episode 5.
I remember the very first time I started reading Umineko and obviously that started at episode 1. Simply going in not knowing what to expect, going "ohhhh this guy seems kind of suspicious" and "nice music", and wondering who's the killer, what's going on, is there really magic or whatever, etc, really made it a awesome experience. It's like playing a awesome video game (such as playing WoW for the very first time) or reading a great book the first time, and then the subsequent times you replay it sort of loses its luster. It was an awesome first experience with episode 1.
Then there's the Tea Party of episode 4. What can I say, that was pretty damn awesome and going from that into episode 5 had me hyped beyond belief.
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u/woodcarbuncle Jun 10 '18 edited Jun 11 '18
I first read Umineko back in 2010-2011 and it easily took the spot as one of my 10/10s (upon reread it now holds its own position as my all time favourite). 8 years down the road it still remains the work that has influenced how I see the world the most, and that finds parts of itself turning up in the most unexpected parts of my life. Right now I'm going through a reread of the VN (having also read the manga up to EP6) with Jokrono's playthrough (Highly recommended by the way, this guy's playthrough is not only really entertaining but he is an excellent reader and detective too. Not recommended for first timers since he figures the core out very early and manages to predict a ton of things) and it's a testament to how well the story is crafted that there's just so much more to discover on a reread. Some people who were dissatisfied with the solution to the mystery argue that Ryukishi pulled it out from his ass, but nothing could be further from the truth. Just about every scene, heck in EP1-2 around every other line, is filled with so much subtext beyond the surface. Throwaway lines or standard hype scenes turn into tragedies when you realise what's going on. And every single smallest decision, every move, by Beatrice was carefully chosen for the single purpose of leading Battler to understand her. At this point it's not even foreshadowing anymore, it's the entire story. Everything was always there, but we just didn't see it. To mention just a few things:
EP2, full spoilers for the whole VN
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u/CptDanaKS Jun 09 '18
After a little over 3 months since I started episode 1 and just now finishing episode 8, Umineko will probably become one of my all time favourite VNs. I was always a fan of mystery novels, and Ryukishi07 has brought up one of my favourite novels, Agatha Christie’s “And Then There Were None” numerous times, drawing a lot of inspiration and parallels to the story, mainly the witches epitaph. So i went into this semi-blind with no real information about the story, characters, music, or even the cast, and I was really blown away with the work and creativity that was put into this game.
As for the issues pretty much everyone has brought up the pacing issues it has as well is some needless repetition, with some moments making it very tedious to sit through.
If I had to pick a favourite episode it would have to be 3. Episode 3 may not have had my favourite moments, but it kept me engaged from the beginning to the end, telling all that was need to be told while rarely having to drag out a scene for too long.
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u/Centurionzo Jun 10 '18
I really the VN but I was disappointed with the end, still I through that the mystery was pretty good, I liked most of the characters and the ost complemented the scenes.
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u/fate32132 Jun 10 '18
I still think magic ending is the climax of the whole journey and one of the most satisfy conclusion but to each their own, I guess.
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u/Arawn_Lucifer Jun 10 '18
One thing that Umineko does very well is the characterization of all is characters. They had plenty of time to developed, sure, but there are plenty of long VN with boring, undeveloped characters. Also, the voice actors did an amazing job, and they sure went all out. Another great point about it is the episode endings, which were all pretty amazing and epic in some ways or others.
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u/Danikuh Jun 09 '18
Presentation wise it's absolutely amazing. Good sound, music and atmosphere. The (original) character art and backgrounds are crude but charming. A lot of the scenes fully utilize the strengths of the medium. If I had to show someone what vns are capable of, I would definitely be showing them scenes from umineko (or maybe higurashi).
The narrative aspect is somewhat more iffy for me. Characters are likeable, generally well characterized and have a lot of depth to them. The story combined with the presentation gets one hyped up pretty easily. There are a lot of things though that hampered my enjoyment of it as a mystery story.
The vagueness of the metaverse just made it feel a lot less "fair". Not revealing rules at the start just makes it feel like a cheap trick. Things like [Umineko] (#s "the accomplices not always being the same") just left a real sour aftertaste for me. I'm also generally not a fan of unreliable narration though that's definitely more a personal thing. In my opinion if you have unreliable narration, your story has to be either 'perfect' (as in has no mistakes) or clearly define what is unreliable and what isn't. For example the entire hempel's raven segment is pretty abysmal and shows significant misunderstandings of the concepts described, which made me question whether I could trust the metaverse or whether this was just a mistake on the authors part. I'm also kind of lukewarm towards the resolution. It's not terrible, but I just had way higher expectations.
I definitely feel like if I had not focused so much on the mystery, I would have enjoyed it a fair bit more. That and the references to And Then There Were None were what got me into it in the first place though, which probably worsened my experience. I enjoyed rereading it for the non-mystery parts though.
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u/Primate541 Jun 10 '18
The first half was enjoyable, with surprisingly good handling of its enormous cast. The writing mostly excels at characterising its cast, subverting expectations of characters multiple times over the course of the game. Characters thought to be likable or unlikable initially are often later shown to be of a contrary nature, in a way that remains consistent to what has been shown before. It sets up its mysteries well, and is often generous enough with its clues to often make you feel you're just short of solving them.
My opinion changed of Umineko changed after reading its second half. Most of the interesting mystery setups in the first half are never resolved. The second half is overwrought, unevenly paced, and it failed to resolve major plot threads. The game's third act was a bait and switch that tried to suggest that its unresolved plot threads never really mattered, and that if you thought they did you missed the point. It established rules for its world, but failed to consistently follow them, and in the end abandoned any pretense of rules to continue its story in an 'anything goes' meta-narrative. It then had no option but to up the ante with over the top absurdities and protracted Dragon Ball Z style fights where combatants fight each other by throwing whales or black holes at each other. Many of the plot threads that are resolved are done in such a clumsy manner, with the penultimate episode essentially being almost entirely expository, with characters introduced that have no purpose in the story but to reveal the exposition before disappearing, never having any purpose thereafter.
Ultimately I enjoyed Umineko and found it compelling. But the lack of resolution of its plot threads left a final sour taste that made me feel like I'd wasted a lot of time waiting for a payoff that the writer contemptuously never intended to provide.
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u/earthanime Jun 10 '18
I disagree with mystery being never resolved. The game does conclude the tale in a conclusive manner. The overarching big mystery is solved, everything is super satisfying. The story ends. It just not feed you all of solution to the readers.
However, it does not solve every single little puzzles. Like room puzzles, or specific episodes are not explained in details. Instead, you get progressively more hints as you progress through the episodes. While it may be difficult to piece everything together after episode 4, The challenge becomes much more feasible after episode 8.
The way the story is written, there can only be one logical solution to each episode’s mystery, so you can find an answer everytime. This is why it stays satisfying. One of the point Ep. 7 is basically all about tearing the cat box and resolved mystery while Ep. 8 focused more on conclusion of the Ushiromiyas and Ange tale .
it established rules for its world, but failed to consistently follow them
It did consistently follow them tho.
with characters introduced that have no purpose in the story but to reveal exposition before dissapearing
I assumed you're talking about Willard but there's a purpose he was there. The story gave a reason why stranger who didn't have anything to do with Rokkenjima massacre would work better than the one that related to it. In contrast to Erika who also stranger to Ushiromiyas, he also represent the detective who cared about "whydunnit" more than "howdunnit" which served as important narration consider how one of the main point of Umineko is about reader and author. Willard being able to accept Lion regardless of his identity is also important for the culprit character arc. He pretty much the main reason why Ep. 7 was so different from other episodes that have Battler or Erika as detective.
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u/farispie Jun 11 '18
The mystery is 100 percent resolved. Will details the how dunnit of 1-4, and if you solved the truth it is pretty obvious stuff. All the hints are there and Umineko trusts the reader to piece it together.
That said, if you really want the answers spoonfed to you, the manga blatantly spells things out for you
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u/AutoModerator Jun 09 '18
Weekly Question: Imagine if you had to read this game as 8 separate releases as it was originally in Japan. Do you think you would have had a different experience if you had to wait for each chapter to be released? Additionally, how much did you think the music contributed to the VN and could the VN have been as popular if the music wasn't as good?
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