Proto-Indo-Iranian: Not Sintashta, but Abashevo–Srubnaya.

[u/rere3131]

So, for the past few years I've been studying the Z93 subclades and their associated cultures. From what I've seen, the Z93 lineages found among Indo-Iranians are connected to the Srubnaya lineage. Fedorovo and Cherkaskul on the other hand, seem to be linked only to the later Scythian peoples and the ancestors of populations descended from the Scythians. The ancestors of the Indo-Iranians appear to be associated with Srubnaya.

Lineages such as R-BY226207, R-YP413, and R-L657 also seem to be connected to Srubnaya. Furthermore, Abashevo and Sintashta were probably already hostile to one another. Sintashta most likely did not emerge from Abashevo; rather, both split directly from Fatyanovo into two separate branches: Abashevo and Sintashta. While Fedorovo and Cherkaskul descend from the Sintashta branch, Srubnaya and Alakul probably descend from the Abashevo branch.

Both the Iranians and the Aryans likely moved southward along the Caspian Sea route. Therefore, in my opinion, Sintashta and its successor, Fedorovo, do not have much to do with the actual ancestors of the Indo-Iranians.

[u/No_Bluebird9028]

It is very confusing whether archaeological horizons can fully reflect identities or they can seamlessly flow into each other and, for example, the Proto-Iranians can be, as it were, heirs in part to a whole series of archaeological cultures that existed simultaneously or in time, flowing from one another in detail, because something can be missed or simply confused ?

[u/rere3131 → u/No_Bluebird9028]

If Abashevo–Srubnaya and Sintashta had been part of a single integrated and complex cultural system, then your argument would make sense. However, the opposite is more likely. These two cultures were probably hostile to each other to a deadly extent.

For example, in the first image, the weapons and military equipment associated with the Uralic groups were found near the Abashevo border. There is not much evidence of warfare between them and Sintashta, so it is possible that the Uralic groups and Sintashta formed an alliance.

There is also another point: at a Srubnaya site located directly on Sintashta's western border, the Y-DNA lineage Q-FTF123 appears to have almost completely disappeared. This could suggest that the Sintashta people carried out a massacre or something similar at that site, which would indicate the extent of hostility between the two cultures.

In addition, there is a very high possibility that this Y-DNA lineage was originally derived from Potapovka culture. Therefore, it is possible that while the Sintashta people allied with Uralic groups, the Abashevo–Srubnaya groups allied with Potapovka-related populations. This would further demonstrate the sharp distinction between the two cultural spheres

https://imgur.com/a/Dq0WyRW

https://imgur.com/a/XainLQT

[u/Kyudoestuff → u/rere3131]

Seima-Turbino = Uralic is way too simplistic

[u/KaitlynKitti → u/rere3131]

How can tribal cultures be wholly hostile to each other over broad spans of time? Would that not require centralized political authority?

[u/No_Bluebird9028 → u/rere3131]

It's quite possible you're right, but such ideas are too speculative. You'll agree that this is partly a fantasy. What about the cultural aspect? As I understand it, at that time, which was approximately 2000 BC, they were in the same linguistic field, meaning they spoke the same language with mutually intelligible dialects. So, in some sense, they were clearly culturally close—after all, language is a cultural marker. It's possible (though unlikely) that they generally represented the same political chouse, and their differences were differences in the social or industrial sphere.

[u/Kyudoestuff]

We may not have enough samples from Fëdorovo to get the full picture of their Y-DNA diversity

Sintashta definitely doesn't derive directly from Fatyanovo, it never reached that far on it's own while Abashevo did spread close to Sintashta

Srubnaya and especially Alakul can be tied to Sintashta also

[u/rere3131 → u/Kyudoestuff]

It is not impossible that Sintashta is directly related to Fatyanovo; it is quite possible, since there is no extreme geographic distance between them. In addition, Srubnaya–Alakul is very likely of Abashevo origin. As a matter of fact, the male lineages (Q-FTF123) at the Srubnaya–Alakul sites just to the west of Sintashta have almost completely disappeared, which could suggest that the Sintashta people may have carried out something like a genocide against them. This also indicates that Srubnaya is very likely not of Sintashta origin.

We also have Fedorovo samples; not many, but not negligible either. More importantly, we also have Y-DNA data from cultures that descend from Fedorovo. These show Z93 subclades that do not represent a straightforward ancestor–descendant relationship with Indo-Iranians.

https://imgur.com/a/Dq0WyRW

[u/Kyudoestuff → u/rere3131]

Q-FTF123 is a local Kumsay lineage and it's only prominent in a single site

And do we have any samples from Southeast Fëdorovo? That area is usually what's tied to Indo-Aryans, and later we do have a basal R-L657 in a Tianshan Saka sample

[u/Secure_Pick_1496]

By Caspian Sea route do you mean Caucasus or Central Asia?

[u/rere3131 → u/Secure_Pick_1496]

Central Asia, East Caspian.

[u/Human_Worth_1154]

To be honest i dont understand much Keywords here as i dont understand the chronology.(Which culture comes after which). But is it possible that the enimity youre saying became Aryan vs Dasyu identity?

[u/rere3131 → u/Human_Worth_1154]

I don’t have enough information about this legend either. I also thought about it, but the Dasyus are described as dark-skinned (“krishna-tvach”), which doesn’t really seem to fit with Sintashta. Some people suggest the BMAC instead, so I can’t really say anything definitive about this topic.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/rere3131 → u/[deleted]]

No, actually there is a lot of evidence not just in terms of Y-DNA but also regarding material culture. For example, while the use of red ochre is a very common tradition among Indo-Iranians, it is very rarely found in Sintashta, but it was used quite extensively in Abashevo and Srubnaya.