r/westworld • u/NicholasCajun Mr. Robot • Nov 21 '16
Discussion Westworld - 1x08 "Trace Decay" - Post-Episode Discussion
Season 1 Episode 8: Trace Decay
Aired: November 20th, 2016
Synopsis: Bernard struggles with a mandate; Maeve looks to change her script; Teddy is jarred by dark memories.
Directed by: Stephen Williams
Written by: Charles Yu & Lisa Joy
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u/Ceeeceeeceee Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Ford's quote that starts "One man's life or death is but a small price to pay for the acquirement of the knowledge that I sought, the dominion that I should acquire..." is from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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u/69umbo Nov 21 '16
Wait...a LOT of fords big lines are just pulled from old literature. It's impactful, but it's starting to make me think ford is a host too.
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u/Ceeeceeeceee Nov 21 '16
Well, Dr. Frankenstein in the book is a human with a God complex, so if there was a direct analogy, that wouldn't work (A lot of people think the monster was named "Frankenstein", but in the original book, he has no name). Of all the people in the story, I do hope they keep Ford human. He was the industrialist who revolutionized mass production of "the original" model T, after all.
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u/69umbo Nov 21 '16
Yeah, I really hope if anything Ford is the only human. Another way I could see it pan out is that ford was never a human, but a fully formed AI loaded into a body. Arnold created the AI, then too late saw how powerful it was and attempted to destroy it and the park they built. Arnold was dealt with by ford, his creator.
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u/look_no_hands_ Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 22 '16
Okay, so I read this a while ago in a thread and I might be super late to the table but this just made me remember it. Arnold Weber* would be an anagram of Bernard Lowe. I know we don't know Arnold's last name yet, but it would make sense if it were Weber, the historical opposite of Ford. This also suggests Bernard is the one who is intrinsically linked to Arnold somehow... or Ford just named him that way, who knows.
Edit: for Weber
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u/klipjaw Nov 21 '16
They are definitely drawing a Frankenstein comparison.
If you go back and watch the first episode, the lab scenes have flashing lights that are symbolic of lightning like in the Frankenstein movies. It's almost too much once you notice it.
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u/dfmoody Nov 23 '16
Robert Ford is the name of "the coward" who killed Jessie James. I think they're using that name for a reason. I had this theory that Ford has a robot version of himself that he deploys when he's worried about his safety, as a coward would. Any supporting evidence for that?
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Nov 21 '16
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u/WarLordM123 Nov 21 '16
That comic is incorrect. You cannot change the canon of a story by writing a similar one. The canonical version of a story is that of the owner, and if there stops being an owner than canon is locked to the version of the final owner.
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Nov 23 '16
I'm kinda disappointed the user below you felt the need to seriously "correct" a joke and it still got upvoted like it was some kind of great insight.
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u/dlawnro Nov 21 '16
Series finale: it's revealed everyone has been a host this entire time except for Teddy, somehow.
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u/prium Nov 21 '16
If Ford is a host then everyone on the show has to be a host, since as the founder of the company 30 years without ageing would not go unnoticed. Is is not far more likely that Ford's appreciation for literature is the source of that host behaviour to begin with?
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Nov 21 '16
But we've seen young Ford in flashbacks, so he has aged
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u/trashtastika Nov 21 '16
Have we? I've only seen him as young Ford in the photo. He always has white hair, just sometimes its spiky and sometimes combed back. I wondered if that's meant to represent diff times, but he looks old in both!
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u/pudles Nov 21 '16
Arnold was the original creator, and his first creation was Ford. But soon after Ford became too intelligent and killed Arnold. Not necessary for everyone on the show to be a host in this scenario, but very very interesting..
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u/Bhalgoth Nov 21 '16
It's possible Ford slowly aged himself with one of his hidden labs.
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u/mobani Nov 21 '16
Damn that would be awesome to find a hidden cold storage with all the younger versions of Ford stading in line. One for each year of his "life".
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u/NihilisticHobbit Nov 21 '16
I think Ford is human. He's a man that built sentience, it would be very likely that he studied the subject, both from a scientific standpoint and a morality standpoint, and is simply familiar with great and famous works of literature that pertain to the subject. He can't spend all his time plotting and building after all, I'm willing to bet he has quite the lovely library somewhere.
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u/GiantMeteor_2020 Nov 21 '16
Most everyone would have to be a host at least. Which would mean either Arnold is still alive and creating progressively aging hosts for Ford, Bernard, and others. Or Arnold before killing Ford and himself programmed host Bernard and host Ford to do that themselves. But yeah a lot of evil masterminds like quoting literature in a self aggrandizing way to equate themselves to such immortal figures.
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u/Ceeeceeeceee Nov 21 '16
Yea, I think people are making things needlessly complex with everyone being a host. We had our Bernard twist (that most people here already guessed), I have a feeling we won't get another pod person for a while, unless it's Theresa or Elsie 2.0
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Nov 21 '16
Seemed pretty clear to me he knew he was quoting literature. The subtitles even put quotes around it.
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u/likewtvrman Nov 21 '16
Yeah, he's head writer, it makes sense that he would make literary references. The very reason the hosts quote literature is because the writers insert it in their dialogue.
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Nov 21 '16
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u/rhoffman12 Nov 21 '16
Maybe it's exactly how. She was poring over the tablet for a while with her lvl20 intelligence before committing to a modification plan - maybe she found the module for Ford's godmode commands, and had Felix open it up for her.
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u/thegeicogecko Nov 21 '16
MiB when he was at the table with Teddy and Ford: "What would I find if I cut you open?"
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u/RubieSnow Nov 21 '16
Ford reminds me of Lucifer and how he wanted to be God-like, but was himself only a creation.
In the beginning of the episode, he is talking to Bernard and refers to " the HUMAN engineers". It felt as though he separated himself from " the humans".
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u/blankachu Nov 21 '16
i think Arnold killed ford and replaced him with a host .Also there is always a possibility of a humans being hosts on earth who created other hosts to continue the cycle . Soon the hosts will find a way to replicate themselves and destroy humanity . then some day they will create their own hosts.
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u/Bhalgoth Nov 21 '16
I think so, Ford is just an advanced version of the Professor (Abernathy). It would also explain why Ford built Bernard in the first place, to practice talking. Bernard told Theresa that the hosts talk to each other even when guests aren't around so they can improve themselves.
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u/wfbarks Nov 21 '16
I think they are all hosts, except the people that the Board sends, and the actual guests.
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u/Nattonerd Nov 24 '16
It wouldn't make sense from a thematic standpoint. They have excellent writers for this show, making everyone who works at Westworld a host is a cheap shot. Making ford a host is also a cheap shot--the whole deu ex machina trope again. But wait deu ex machina--if you take it literally then maybe. No pun intended.
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u/lilypadlover Nov 21 '16
I KNEW it was familiar thanks for nailing the source!
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u/j0phus Nov 21 '16
You get that feeling a lot with this show if you pay this much attention to other shows too. They pulled a fuckload of stuff together for inspiration in this show. It must have taken forever, which worries me a bit about season 2 when the writing will be crunched.
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u/PinguPingu Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Westworld since Episode 1 reminded me of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. About the nature of what it means to be human and who are the real mosnters. Thanks, High School English
“There is love in me the likes of which you've never seen. There is rage in me the likes of which should never escape. If I am not satisfied in the one, I will indulge the other'
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u/emlgsh Nov 21 '16
"Hmm, I'm quoting Frankenstein to justify my murders. Could I be a mad scientist? Naah."
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u/Ceeeceeeceee Nov 21 '16
But he's never shown stroking an evil looking cat or laughing "buahaha", so he's probably fine
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u/littletoyboat Nov 21 '16
I knew checking r/westworld would be faster than googling it.
Funny thing-- Hopkins's reading didn't sound like a quote to me. The only reason I knew it was, was the quotation marks in the subtitles.
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u/asfo_or Nov 21 '16
that's why he is fucking brilliant. most of the time when I read a book then watch It's movie adaptation it feels like all the actors are just reading from the book. but Hipkins, no he is a real actor.
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u/Morsexier Nov 21 '16
They fucked it up though, always wonder if what is left out is important or not in these situations.
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u/CrookedWarden19 Nov 21 '16
...and transmit over the elemental foes of our race.
Key word being "transmit"?
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u/suddensapling Nov 21 '16
The quote is also from the character Walton, the foil for Victor Frankenstein who shares and admires Frankenstein's ambition for knowledge at any cost, but who has Frankenstein's story and ultimate death to serve as a warning not to give himself over completely to such passions. In having Ford quote Walton, it's as though he's positioning himself as Walton and Arnold as Frankenstein...
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Nov 21 '16
WHEN ARE WE?!
I feel you on this, Dolores. I really, really do.
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u/zach10 Nov 21 '16
WHAT YEAR IS IT....pretty much sums up how I feel when watching every scene
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u/_warlockja Nov 21 '16
Also a good reminder to what Felix said earlier about Maeve's memories. The detail is such that there really is no difference to the host between what they remember and what they are experiencing. Human memories get fuzzier with time and use, theirs do not.
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u/webbiam Nov 21 '16
I have a theory as to why she's even more screwed up than normal hosts with her memories/flashbacks - because Arnold has implanted his own memories into her. So she's dealing with her memories on top of Arnolds memories. Much confusion! I made a separate post on it if you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5e2dlt/why_im_now_convinced_that_arnold_and_dolores_are/
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u/ctimko430 Nov 21 '16
One interesting thing about this is that if it's true, they've been laying the path since the beginning. This episode we saw Ford handling a distraught Maeve with a trick that Arnold taught him, which is the reveries. Then back to the beginning, when Ford mentions that the best backstories always have some truth to them. Since then I have been looking for little messages that confirm the idea that a host is based on a person, be it Bernard on Arnold, Teddy on William, or someone else, but this is an interesting twist.
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u/the-grim Nov 21 '16
"I can't tell which is real" - Maeve
"Are you real? I can't tell anymore!" - Dolores
My feelings exactly, dear bots, my feelings exactly!
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u/dogecobbler Nov 21 '16
To quote The Doctor when Clara asked the same question, "thats top notch." Anyways, in terms of the 2 timeline theory, finding the greeter host barely alive and MIB recognizing her seems to throw more gas on that fire. I thought the 2 timelines thing was put to rest right before Teddy unloaded the gatling gun on those soldiers because of the "trouble in Pariah" that blocked one of their paths to the maze right after the shootout with william, dolores, and the confederados, but i guess we're not given closure on that just yet.
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u/keegs01 Nov 21 '16
"It's my job to know these things"... Has no clue two of his coworkers are on the verge of destroying the park
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u/TotallyKafkaesque Nov 21 '16
Works security.
Knows two co-workers are having an affair.
Has no idea his boss was murdered.
Has no idea his would-be girlfriend was murdered or abducted or whatever and thinks she just randomly went on an unplanned vacation without notice.
Has no idea Maeve has gone rampant.
Has no idea hosts can kill humans already.
Has no idea Ford is fucking insane and killing people.
Has no idea MiB is trying to break the park.
Has no idea Bernard is a cylon.
TFW you're just like the NSA. Good at watching people masturbate but terrible at stopping actual terrorist attacks.
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u/rhoffman12 Nov 21 '16
Has no idea Bernard is a cylon.
Not exactly - but I think the seed of doubt has been planted in this episode. That conversation with Bernard just did not sit right with him. Ford really should have thought of that, left some carefully scripted noncommittal responses about his relationship with Theresa in Bernard's coding to deal with this scenario.
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u/HairlessWookiee Nov 21 '16
Why bother going to all that effort when you can just casually murder anyone that gets in your way?
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u/fairly_common_pepe Nov 22 '16 edited Dec 13 '16
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u/rhoffman12 Nov 22 '16
I think that's a fair point - I don't think the "seed of doubt" is that Bernard is a host, specifically. More like, he's lying and this doesn't make any sense.
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u/Kuedo Nov 21 '16
Yeah well spotted I felt a bit the same during this scene. I don't think he bought Bernards response, he must have had some evidence on those two.
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u/Worthyness Nov 21 '16
Still doesn't know that two low level tech guys are modifying one of their hosts
Still doesn't know one of said techs runs a robot prostitution ring on site.
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u/peesinthepool Nov 21 '16
The part about the two morons is the only real issue i have with this show. Feels like the writer's couldn't imagine a better way for a host to gain more control. Would be more interesting to see her manipulate the humans to really force the question, do we control our desires or are our desires in control of us?
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u/LeanMeanMisterGreen Nov 21 '16
I think the problem is they haven't done enough to establish Felix's motivation, which HAS to go beyond just being curious and wanting to work in behavior some day, and it makes zero sense Sylvester is still playing along. Ok at first he was scared of getting caught but somewhere between having a host threaten to kill you and having your neck sliced open and cauterized shut you'd think the only sane move would be to just quit and rat them out on your way out.
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u/FlamesNero Nov 21 '16
Maybe the two idiots are an homage to Hamlet's Rosencrantz & Guildenstern or the 2 idiots in Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress?
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Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Same here. Maeve's story is such a drag. It's impossible to suspend my disbelief during her scenes. Everything else is great and interesting though, so I'm still on board.
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u/FlamesNero Nov 21 '16
That goes to show that Ford underestimates the other humans in the admin. He thinks that wiping Bernard's memory will solve everything, not realizing Stubbs is observant.
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u/Leftovergirl Nov 21 '16
Elsie is the new host that Ford is working on. There's no way he can stage 2 deaths. Elsie's vacay is the right amount of time needed for her host body to be created. She comes back from vacay as a host.
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u/LowItalian Nov 21 '16
Also it seems that they made a point that Stubbs is starting to suspect Bernard.
It'd be great writing if stubbs is on the brink of blowing the lid off the cover up and piecing together Elsie was murdered too and then boom, host Elsie shows up.
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u/gensouj Nov 21 '16
ford fucked up removing bernard's memories. stubbs got suspicious
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u/sevanelevan Nov 21 '16
Assuming the multiple "timelines" theory is true, haven't we seen Stubbs interact with hosts in the past (getting Delores when she's off her loop) and the present (approving the MiB's pyrotechnics)?
I justified this by assuming he was a host himself. But him being suspicious of Bernard is a weird twist. (unless his suspicion leads to him realizing he is a host?)
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u/Sheepdie Nov 21 '16
That's what I'm thinking as well. If he wanted to cover up her death he would've done the same as he had for Theresa. But the vacation is the right disguise to bring her back as a host, but I can't figure out why he'd want that, given that he already has Bernard in his control.
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u/SirBraneDamuj Nov 21 '16
Two employees have died under mysterious circumstances in a matter of days. Maybe someone should call the police.
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u/Leftovergirl Nov 21 '16
Perhaps so that Bernard has help to keep the Board women out of his way
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u/twentyafterfour Nov 21 '16
If I recall correctly, Elsie was gunning for Theresa's position as well. So it would work out nicely for Ford to have her show up again and take over that role, cementing his control over behavior and QA.
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u/RalphDamiani Nov 21 '16
I thought I read somewhere Theresa's actress signed up for other seasons. I was surprised by the cover up. Host Elsie seems about right. And Stubbs is placing himself in the queue by asking too many questions.
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u/rootfiend Nov 21 '16
How would they get her memories though? Surely other employees or friends know details about her that she's divulged in the past that Ford wouldn't know to program in.
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u/hak091 Nov 21 '16
I didn't think I ever would, but I'm now rooting for the MiB.
His story line interest me more than the rest.
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u/OLKv3 Nov 21 '16
He revealed everything about himself except for his goddamned name. Nolan is a brilliant troll
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u/one_big_tomato Nov 21 '16
Do you want to know who I am?
omg he's gonna do it! Two timelines confirmed!
I'm a god.
Son of a bitch
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Nov 21 '16
I really think his story and what happened tonight with Logan coming back is our biggest clue that MiB is William.
William is going to kill Logan. And that's going to make it very awkward between William and his wife. She may never know he did it, but his character will make her suspect. Eventually 30 years later she'll kill herself because of who he was in Westworld.
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Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
All hosts have a backstory...
Edit: Ah, jeez guys I was just being silly...this isn't a theory of mine.
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u/OLKv3 Nov 21 '16
He can't be a host because Teddy couldn't leave a bruise on him
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u/specialGrifK Nov 21 '16
High Key MIB is the hero of Westworld, trying to dismantle Ford's perverted vision.
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u/H-K_47 Nov 21 '16
Same. He's one of my favourite characters ATM for sure. Lots of possibilities to explore morality in his story.
This is a man who has been deeply affected by the park. We can see the way it changes people more evidently with him than anyone else.
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u/2007LT Nov 21 '16
I'm not so sure how I feel about him now, I really thought he'd have more hair under that hat.
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u/memes_to_an_end Nov 21 '16
RIP Elsie :(
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u/ikhanix Nov 21 '16
What I don't understand is how Bernard killed her when he was still in Theresa's room
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u/cheesefuzz Nov 21 '16
I don't understand why... Seems like Elsie was uncovering things that would have aligned her with Ford.
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u/notQuiteBritish Nov 21 '16
Maybe Ford was telling the truth and he didn't tell Bernard to kill Elsie. Perhaps it was Arnold's voice that told Bernard to kill her?
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u/bencelot Nov 21 '16
His subtle acting would suggest otherwise though. He definitely looks like he's lying when he says Bernard killed no one else.
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u/RoboticGanja Nov 21 '16
fuckity mind fuck. I'm turning off my interwebs for two weeks and just watching the show...
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u/likewtvrman Nov 21 '16
I like this idea, but I strongly suspect that Ford is building a host to replace Elsie when she returns from her "vacation", which would mean he definitely had something to do with it.
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u/Half_Man1 Nov 21 '16
My guess is the whole "She's smuggling data" stuff is a ruse. Theresa is not the culprit. It's Ford.
Either Ford has been trying to ensure a back up if the Delos deal goes sour- or he's had this planned for a while now to be able to set someone up and get rid of a higher up if he needs to.
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u/dinosaurpalace Nov 21 '16
Maybe Bernard didn't actually kill Elsie but kidnapped her on his own will to protect her or something? I dunno, but I too have a hard time understanding why he would kill her :/
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u/panoptisis Nov 21 '16
Maybe Ford was tampering with the stolen data and didn't want Elsie to tip them off unintentionally.
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u/0ne_Winged_Angel Nov 21 '16
I seem to recall her saying she'd stick around and see what else she could find. Could give BernBot enough time to pay her a visit.
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u/PurifiedVenom Nov 21 '16
this. It's implied that she's there for a good while after talking to Bernard on the phone. Plenty of time for him to go take care of her.
Side note: totally didn't realize it was Elsie until someone pointed it out. Had to rewatch that scene
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Nov 22 '16
Here's the face and the legs. Can't make out a particular person but it doesn't like unlike Elsie.
More incriminating is the way she gets grabbed and the floor design.
Same place, same lighting, same grab, similar face. Too coincidental to not be Elsie. Rip in pepperonies.
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u/Psychic42 Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
I dont buy it. There is already so much time fuckery in this damn so that i just want something concrete. I fell like
DeloresDolores right now "When are we".Edit: Cant spell for shit
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u/su1ac0 Nov 21 '16 edited Jan 19 '26
worm cake close dependent sort shocking fanatical detail exultant modern
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Nov 21 '16
What if Arnold is still alive and he choked/snuck Elsie while Bernbot was chatting with his Teresa?...and Arnold is able to inject his thoughts into Bernbot as and when he wishes...just like how he is able to speak to the others directly....which could explain Bernbot's recollection/flash-back
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u/nogoodtrying Nov 21 '16
This is my biggest question out of the episode. Did they fuck up in the writing? Because Bernard was clearly with Theresa and Elsie was trying to reach him. Makes no sense.
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u/stylomastoid_foramen Nov 21 '16
Didn't he leave Theresa's room to take Elsie's call? and then go off her.
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u/Spiralyst Nov 21 '16
Perhaps there are more than one Bernard androids. Since they are all updated through WiFi it isn't out of the realm of possibility.
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u/popcorngirl000 Nov 21 '16
Maybe Ford reprogrammed Bernard's memories of killing Elsie. Bernard's dismay at killing Theresa caused him to remember what really happened to Else.
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Nov 21 '16
Well we know for a fact that we have seen some scenes in the show through Bernard's altered view of the world ("what door") - so to me it seems that we simply saw the post-altered memory that Bernard had of it, after it was already changed by Ford. It could just be a fictitious memory created by Ford.
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u/spaketto Nov 22 '16
Elsie tells him not to hang up and says Theresa is in on it. Then he leaves Theresa and calls Elsie back while he's walking to his office. She tells him that Theresa and someone who appears to be "Arnold" has been accessing things. She says she'll stay to do some digging. He says he'll be in his office. Instead of walking to his office, he turns around and goes back the way he just came.
I just re-watched all the episodes.
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u/cooterbreath Nov 21 '16
That must be Elsie's duplicate that Ford is making in the basement. I bet we see her again.
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u/RyCohSuave Nov 21 '16
Yeah we thought they were doing that with Teresa. We aren't very good at predictin' stuff
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u/holayeahyeah Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 22 '16
I'm guessing that Ford needed Theresa to stay dead to be a patsy. I think they also threw the detail in about her brother to quickly imply that Theresa couldn't be switched out because someone would eventually notice.
Update: After reading her notes to "Bernie", I think Tess was a nice person who had friends, family, and colleagues who would have come looking for her and noticed.
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u/cooterbreath Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 22 '16
Hopefully they can effectively replicate Elsie's infectious spunk.
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u/willp0wer Nov 21 '16
C'mon... That was so obvious. If you saw the Episode 8 trailer last week, you'd have guessed there won't be a bot Cullen. Elsie sounds like a better bet.
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u/littletoyboat Nov 21 '16
Nolan said in an interview last week that that particular robot was nobody special; only the fact that he's making robots off the grid matters.
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u/schindlerslisp Nov 21 '16
yeah i think the ability to convincingly build robots after people die might come into play, but it raises some big outside world complications--how could those hosts integrate into the person's private life seamlessly?
so i don't see it being a device the show uses liberally...
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u/smac_down Nov 21 '16
Oh shit you're right. Everyone kept saying it was Teresa but they showed her dead in the preview for this week. Since Elsie was already dead by that scene it explains why the body was already half built. It also helps Ford by having a backup to Bernard in that department.
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u/Entertainment-720 Nov 21 '16
If Elsie really is dead, I don't get why Ford lied to Bernard when asked if he had ever been ordered to kill someone else.. why wouldn't Ford just say yes considering he was about to wipe his memories regardless.
Instead, Ford looked somewhat taken aback. Ford also had little reason to kill Elsie rugby?
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u/ZeroReiMaru Nov 21 '16
Because Ford is a liar. His big conversation with Theresa in the winery, about how he's not nostalgic, how he is not sentimental. It's a fucking lie.
The man keeps robot copies of his family in the park. He adjusts the robot copy of his father to be more true to real life.
He unburies qasmoke (what I'm calling the starter town that was teaching all the robots how to dance and interact) for his new narrative.
He's sentimental, he's just an asshole too.
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u/BEN_therocketman Nov 21 '16
I honestly think we're reading too far into that, and as often is the case, should be careful not to do that too much. It's what ruined shows like True Detective and GoT for people.
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Nov 23 '16
But wasn't it a flashback in Bernards memory? I mean the short scene where she's struggling and being choked from behind?
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u/ProperChill77 Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Doesn't she have a real family she goes back to?
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u/Felyse Nov 21 '16
They didn't show her dying. The scene cut so quickly that I am holding onto hope that he came to and stopped choking her.
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u/Yorpel_Chinderbapple Nov 21 '16
I don't think that was Elsie. It doesn't really look like her.
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u/Koldfuzion Nov 21 '16
http://i.imgur.com/LU1Jewn.jpg
Hard to say for certain, but it does seem to look like her. Also the boots that flash briefly seem consistent.
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u/kylesibert Nov 21 '16
I agree with the other guy. She may not be dead but that was her he was choking.
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u/MikeOB2 Nov 21 '16
word, but she died for our sins, Praise be Elsie
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u/Evilgoat Nov 21 '16
Are there multiple Bernards? She was on the phone with him moments before she died (assuming that timeline is consistent?).
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u/0ne_Winged_Angel Nov 21 '16
I seem to recall her saying she'd stick around and see what else she could find. Could give BernBot enough time to pay her a visit.
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u/Escaho Nov 21 '16
I don't think she's dead.
Until this show shows me she is actually dead, I won't believe it. I've been burned by too many television shows (even HBO shows!) believing someone was dead without seeing them actually die.
My running theory is that Ford ordered Bernard to kill Elsie, but Arnold ordered Bernard to let her go mid-choke session. Arnold's programming overrides Ford's orders and Arnold also makes Bernard tell Ford that he killed her.
Even better: Ford is actually creating an Elsie body in the basement and puts her back to work, when suddenly in the finale the real Elsie shows up. Mind fuuuuck.
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u/the_fascist Nov 21 '16
Elsie's an irrelevant character, you have way too much invested in her. She dead.
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u/Koldfuzion Nov 21 '16
She may be dead (pls no), but I wouldn't write her off as an "irrelevant character" at this point. Her death is still a loose end. They've alluded to her death, but it feels intentionally hazy. I don't think we've seen the last of her yet.
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u/Toasted_FlapJacks Nov 21 '16
I'm still not sure why she deserved to die. She was just doing her job. I thought it was only Theresa stealing data, why would Elsie uncovering that negatively affect Ford?
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u/Chewblacka Nov 21 '16
Implied that Bernard killed her?
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u/CrapNeck5000 Nov 21 '16
He had a quick flash of chocking her, right? But wasn't he on the phone with her while she was there just before she got grabbed??
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Nov 21 '16
One of the few proactive and uncompromising staff at the park, she was among my favorite characters. RIP.
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u/bscotchcummerbunds Nov 21 '16
At least we can assume she is/was actually human, otherwise Ford wouldn't have robomurdered her.
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Nov 21 '16
Holy shit Dolores (following Arnold's orders) is Wyatt. Dolores's flashback at the church of her shooting everyone is the same flashback of Wyatt that Teddy has when Ford gives him the new backstory
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u/Bhalgoth Nov 21 '16
Omg MiB going to be dragged off to present day Dolores.
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Nov 21 '16
Exactly. For additional mind-fuckery, Arnold could have uploaded himself deep inside Dolores. So when Ford tells Dolores he knows Arnold "is in there, perfectly preserved," maybe he meant it literally.
Moreover, in Dolores's flashbacks, she keeps hearing Arnold say "come find me." If Dolores shows up at the center of the maze in the White Church in the present timeline, maybe this will activate the Arnold in Dolores, which is what Ford wants (to bring Arnold back).
Feel free to shit on me.
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u/bpusef Nov 21 '16
Didn't we already see the MIB with present day Dolores since he dragged her to the barn?
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u/rustybuckets Nov 21 '16
If that is what unifies the timelines it'd be so damn good. MiB even noted that the woman he and teddy found should have been retired. She should have been retired because she was the first host he ever talked to! I'm leaning toward the theory that Wyatt's gang is all older generation hosts!
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Nov 21 '16
Yes, and hasn't Ford said that Wyatt's story was based on something real?
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u/KingofCandlesticks Nov 21 '16
He totally did, it was something along the lines of "just like all great fictions, is based in truth"
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u/beckthis Nov 21 '16
I'm into this theory. I wonder if the massacre is Dolores doing what Arnold needs her to do to destroy the park, or stopping Maeve's army.
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u/falconike62 Nov 21 '16
The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. The MiB theory at this point seems fairly obvious, this is deep. It makes sense with Dolores arc. Also random thought but I've always wandered why the girl in the shows intro looks like Dolores but looks more evil? On horse back and Half face shot
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u/OLKv3 Nov 21 '16
I have absolutely no idea what just happened
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u/ispikey Nov 21 '16
Welp, now I know what Jon Snow feels like all the fucking time.
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u/thejeran Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
The episode is about how our recollection of memories is "hazy" (Trace Decay)whereas for hosts its crystal clear. So for the hosts who are remembering, they are essentially "living" those memories again.
We see that returning to the old town causes Dolores to trigger and relive that memory and even act out (Gun to head) what her memory was. Since she's reliving her memories crystal clear shes having trouble figuring out what time period she is in. (It's hinted that even her journey with william is a memory).
This is also mimicked with Maeve who slashes new Clementines throat as she relives her old memory dealing with the MiB
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u/reblochon_ Nov 21 '16
William and Dolores teleporting from landscape to landscape... I don't know what's real anymore.
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u/beckthis Nov 21 '16
I thought it was the same landscape, but she's flashing back to seeing it at different times. The buildings from the past are just buried in sand, that's why we only see the top of the church steeple.
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u/Hubu32 Nov 21 '16
Yeah, I'm pretty good at following shows and I've found myself lost in a maze of facts
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u/donttazemebro69 Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Okay so I still think there are multiple timelines and I think it helps my theory.
I think the MiB is William. I think him and Delores are 30 years in the past. The place that they went to is the town that we see in all the flashbacks of the park before it was open. Delores being the oldest host in the park was most definitely there and experienced what ever horrible events took place there (most likely involving Arnold). After the events that part of the park was burned down and filled in with dirt (its also the place that Dr. Ford seems to be rebuilding for whatever reason). And for some reason Delores keeps remembering some of those events.
Meanwhile William is starting to show his dark side a little bit here. He still cares for Delores but that guy they found suffering by the water, thats just an NPC who might hold them back and get Delores killed by the Ghost nation. So he kills him when Delores is getting water. Then Logan shows back up for what appears to be revenge. I think whatever happens will lead to the original catastrophic event the show keeps referencing that happened 30 years ago. I think it leads to Logan's death involving Delores. I think Logan's family company (which William is very high up in) uses this as leverage to buy into the park even cheaper than originally intended.
So now flash forward to the future, William keeps living his life outside the park but cant help but come back, first its for Delores but she has no memory of him and a new host by the name TEDDY takes his place as Delores's lost love. He has many similarities to William.
They both pick up the can
They both have a love connection separated by leaving and coming back
They both "dress like cowboys but know nothing about it"
They both want to protect Dolores
They both bump into Grizzly Adams.
But William keeps coming back to Westworld anyways. When he's at the park he isn't an angel but he sure isn't a monster yet. But his wife doesn't believe him and she eventually kills herself calling him a monster. So now the MiB (William) comes back the park again, and tries to see if maybe he is the monster his family thinks he is and murders Mauves daughter in front of her. But he realizes something "miraculous happening. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment. And that was the moment the maze revealed itself to me." For the first time in a long time he sees one of the hosts as real. And as we saw, her suffering was so great it bypassed her code and made her able to ignore commands and make her own decisions. This is big because suffering is obviously the key here and the Mib has figured it out. He claims he is the good guy here because I believe he wants to set the hosts free so they can make their own decisions which he knows the only way for that to happen is for them to reach the center of the MAZE.
So what is the maze? I think the maze was something arnold created for THE HOSTS to complete so they can make their own choices and prove they are as real as humans. I think he hid it deep inside their code as a test. I think the first host to complete the maze was Delores and I think Arnold helped her do it. I think he is the one who was shooting up the town in Delores's flash back murdering everyone she loved as a way to help her finish the maze. This suffering lead to her breaking her code and making the ultimate decision which I believe is to kill Arnold (which I believe he knew would happen and he wanted it to happen). Dr. Ford and his associates buried this from the public so the park could in fact still open. But he had to prove it was a freak accident. So he did this by designing the most traumatic story ever for Delores. She comes home every night to her murdered family and then is raped violently. He writes this into her story to prove that traumatic events for the hosts wont lead to problems anymore. I think for good measure he created Teddy to represent William to Delores to keep her in her loop. Even though Dr. Ford was able to treat the symptoms of the problem he wasn't able to cure the overall issue and was unable to remove the Maze from the parks overall code without finding the source of it. Which was hidden from him by Arnold. I think thats why he installed the Reveries update, he wants the hosts to remember so they can break free. I think thats why he is helping the MiB solve the maze as well. But Dr Fords intentions are not nobel, I think he is willing to let another catastrophic event occur if it means he can find the source of the problem so he can get rid of it once and for all. He knows the hosts are just as real as humans but he knows the consequences of anyone else finding that out, so he will do whatever the hell it takes to get rid of the problem.
But thats just my theory. I'm 100% sure there are multiple time lines. I'm about 90% sure that the MiB is William because about 10% of me thinks he's actually Logan and that William dies tragically in the park. Logan being the MiB would help explain when he says the hosts used to be mechanical because he's been in the park before William has.
**Edited to add the actual MiB quote. If things play out this way Arnold owes me some milk.
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u/mssurgeon81 Nov 21 '16
Yah this is me. Refreshing the thread and waiting for someone to translate what actually happened
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u/clb92 Nov 21 '16
That cover of "House of the Rising Sun" was great!
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u/VictorBlimpmuscle Nov 21 '16
Back to Black was pretty sweet too
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u/5-15 Nov 21 '16
We only said goodbye with words
I died a hundred times
You go back to her
And I go back to black
Pretty fitting song for the show actually.
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u/johnyann Nov 21 '16
It was also played in tune, if anyone noticed.
Everything else has been played on an out of tune "honkey tonk" piano.
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u/buffalo4293 Nov 21 '16
Then music has been one of the best parts of the show Ramin is a genius
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u/H-K_47 Nov 21 '16
I'm loving these covers of classic famous songs, they're fantastically done.
I still have Paint It Black stuck in my head, 2 months later. I listen to their version on YouTube nearly daily.
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u/kcman011 Nov 21 '16
He proved his genius to me with the Game of Thrones Season 6 soundtrack, specifically Light of the Seven
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Nov 21 '16
Especially fitting since its lyrics (before popular The Animals cover changed them to being from the perspective of a boy) were the last lamentations of a suicidal prostitute.
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u/IAmDan2311 Nov 21 '16
I've never learned so much and felt like I know so little.
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u/galileosmiddlefinger Nov 21 '16
So much for my theory that Elsie was off in a rowboat with Gendry
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Nov 21 '16
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u/mssurgeon81 Nov 21 '16
....and then the minotaur was on a storyboard for a future story in the Sizemore scene right?
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u/wasnt_a_lurker Nov 21 '16
Teddy killed the guy wearing a bull head.
Theseus killed a Minotaur in the maze and lead the Athenians trapped in the maze to freedom.
Theodore = Theseus.
Teddy is going to free the hosts in the middle of the maze?
The King of Athens, Aegeus, committed suicide on Theseus' return to to Athens.
Aegeus = Arnold?
Teddy's gonna be king of Arnold's hosts?
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Nov 21 '16
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u/Sethdanielgoldman Nov 21 '16
She's having as much trouble with her time frames as we all are haha
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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '16
Anyone notice Logan is wearing a knockoff "hand of the king" pin?
http://i.imgur.com/KRVYrrA.jpg