r/SubredditDrama • u/[deleted] • Oct 26 '16
Racism Drama r/pics debates internalized colonialism and team mascots.
[deleted]
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u/onetwotheepregnant Oct 27 '16
I'm originally from Cleveland, and I wish we could be the Cleveland Spiders again. That's such a sick name.
I also know that the name was originally changed to honor a Native American player, but times change, ya dig?
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u/I_am_the_night Oct 27 '16
Wait, it used to be the Spiders? Who the hell thought the Indians would be a better name?
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u/legionallofus Oct 27 '16
They didn't used to be the Spiders. The Spiders were a baseball team that existed in Cleveland over a 100 years ago. They're not the same as the Indians.
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u/Opechan Oct 27 '16
Isn't that a pretty cheap way to shoot down the opinions of Native Americans who might disagree with you?
r/IndianCountry butter-surrogate here.
I actually drafted a response to this within minutes of its posting, but decided other users did a better job of addressing it. This really seemed to bother people:
And before I get some r/AsaBlackMan or "My Native American Friend Says" action in here, internalized racism and internalized colonialism are actually a thing.
YES, I have to agree that this handful of words did have a tremendous return for minimum investment and in that sense, it was "cheap." Initially, I considered saying "please take Native Americans who endorse racist imagery, et al. with a grain of salt," but I decided to be more specific. I disagree that it has the effect of completely invalidating dissenting points of view, but given the rude and hostile "I'M NATIVE AMERICAN, SOME OF US DON'T GIVE A SHIT AND NEITHER DO I AND NO, I'M NOT MAD" rebuttal OP pointed out, I guess some people felt like they had something to prove.
I may have added too much salt, probably much more than a grain. A toxic quantity of salt that people might have confused with rat poison. Ok, really, who knew that sprinkling a dash of NaCl in r/pics could produce fire? Fuck, we may have just solved the world's energy problem.
I neither anticipated nor intended the uproar that would follow, but it really vindicates the accusation that Reddit can be an extraordinarily racist and hateful place.
Some of it is ignorance mixed with hostility, to which I occasionally reply if there's a likely danger of users spreading misinformation inspired by racial grievance, where facts are readily available.
Our response is, as I said, We host the 2nd Annual Native American Heritage Month at /r/IndianCountry on Reddit.
I would like that other Native American Redditors join our community in general, bolster Native American social media market share, and help use technology to compliment community and culture. However being Native is far less important than not being an asshole who professes the toxic idea, divorced from the Native American Mascotry issue, that anti-Indian racism is a "don't give a shit about it" affair.
That attitude is a fundamental part of many real-world problems that go beyond Chief Wahoo or racism, generally. It poisons and destroys our communities in the real world. I don't know that the average Redditor understands how pernicious it is, that the appropriate response on identifying it must be swift, decisive, and uncompromising.
Let me contextualize it a bit more: My tribal community has ~200 enrolled members, by choice. I'm leaving the name out, you can see which one I'm talking about at r/IndianCountry and I've self-identified elsewhere. Our combination of self-segregation, Jim Crow compliance/internalization, and embrace of untraditional patriarchy altogether results in us killing ourselves through bad policy and we're two or three generations of "I don't give a shit" from extinction. That's the existential dread behind my opposition to the "I don't give a shits" of Indian Country.
This is true as to the implications of Federal Indian Policy, which made us count backwards to zero at its outset, but no longer actively needs to do so because we're following that downward demographic spiral on our own volition. The official policy is "we're free to stop hurting ourselves at any time," except it's wrapped-up in power, which people are loathe to surrender.
I could go on. Hell, I have gone on and over.
Maybe my mistake is adding a spurt a blood where I intended a grain of salt; they taste the same.
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u/throwaway_00132 Oct 27 '16
+20 fucking upvotes.
"I completely understand not wanting your culture to be insulted, but the real problem is that you don't like your culture being insulted and you voice that opinion." So infuriating.
Oh and add a hefty dose of "Hey I didn't intend to offend people when I dressed up in blackface! Therefore it's the fault of the people who were offended for being offended!"
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u/Opechan Oct 27 '16
It never ceases to dazzle me when people think good intentions completely redeem the predictable and utterly bad consequences that flow from their misguided actions.
It's much worse when they double down about the goody-goodness on their insides, while we're stuck paying the fucking check again.
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u/VoiceofKane Oct 27 '16
I just don't understand how people can just brush off simple concepts like internalized racism or how caricatures like Chief Wahoo can influence young First Nations children.
Also, the APA requested that sports teams change their names over a decade ago, and nothing has been done about it yet? That's ridiculous.
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u/Billlington Oct 26 '16
Has the historical plight of the Irish been mentioned in good faith at all in the last ten years or so?
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Oct 27 '16
Has the historical plight of the Irish been mentioned in good faith at all in the last ten years or so?
What's that you ask? The historical whatnow of the indigenous peoples of Ireland? Nothin' bad ever happened to the Irish because they're a lucky folk. That's why there's a saying that goes, "The luck o' the Irish!" They're too cheery from drinkin' their whisky to ever worry about rainy days anyhow. And what's a rainy day to an Irishman when there's a rainbow to show for it? You know what's at the end of a rainbow, right? A pot o' gold! Sure they may be quicker to fist-a-cuff than most other races but they're proud of their fightin'! That's why they're called "the fightin' Irish!" You'll never see a more rowdy bunch of hooligans than when you witness Irishmen in their natural state of whisky sippin' and fists a flyin'. So the next time ya see a bottle of Jameson or a potato, remember that each of them have a lil' bit of Irish luck tucked inside.
There's one thing I must mention since we are on about the Irish race. Don't go askin' about Leprechauns because that's like blackface to them. When explorers first discovered the Land-of-Ire, they called the Irish people "Leprechauns" because of their short stature. It wasn't until the turn of the 20th century, and the discovery of blood groups, that the scientific community discovered that Irish blood was the same as human blood. Of course this new discovery led to their emancipation. In addition to that, their owners could no longer claim them as "chattel" either.
Oh dear I think I went on another one of my long-winded tales again. I'm sure you have places to be now so I won't bother you with much more about the Irish people. They're a friendly lot so don't be scared if you see a gaggle of those copper-hairs wavin' 'hello' to you. Just don't waste your time tryin' to hire them for anything that will sweat their brow. Have you ever heard the term, "Workin' as hard as an Irishman"? There's probably a reason you haven't heard it and it isn't because you never visited Ireland.
Well, this took a bit longer than I expected but it sure was fun chattin' with you!
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u/legionallofus Oct 27 '16
I feel like that's gonna whoosh a lot of people. Why? Other dude is right, there's a lot of adherents to Church of Power Plus Privilege here.
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u/The_Messiah Oct 27 '16
Do actual Irish people count?
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u/RandomTomatoSoup Oct 27 '16
I'm fairly sure we're not even real people, like the Belgians or the Basque.
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u/joesap9 Oct 27 '16
You would think knowing of the suffering your ancestors went through would make you want to ease the suffering of others
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u/Kraken_Greyjoy Oct 27 '16
As an (Asian) Indian, I have to see this gets really annoying. There are people who claim they are not offended or that they don't care but curiously enough, they make sure to show up tell everyone how much they don't care.
I really see no point to it. It doesn't make the object of discussion any less racist. It just becomes and easy way for others to dismiss your concerns.
anyway, props to Opechan. I've noticed them before and they are pretty patient with the usual hordes.
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u/TandyJessica Oct 27 '16
they make sure to show up tell everyone how much they don't care.
Probably because, as always, the people that do care will tell you about it ad nauseum, until you want to tell them to shut the fuck up.
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u/Cylinsier Oct 27 '16
How on earth is the Indians mascot anymore racist than the Dallas Cowboys mascot?
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u/mikerhoa Oct 27 '16
IMO the rule of thumb should be that if the name can reasonably be construed as a slur, like "redskin" and "indian" most certainly can be, it should be considered out of bounds.
On a side note, the fact that the Florida State Seminoles have a statue of a Native American with the title "Unconquered" emblazoned on it always kind of perplexed me. Doesn't seem right in my eyes.