r/westworld • u/NicholasCajun Mr. Robot • Oct 07 '16
Discussion Post Westworld - 1x02 "Chestnut" - Episode Discussion
Season 1 Episode 2: Chestnut
Released online: October 6th, 2016
Aired on cable: October 9th, 2016
Synopsis: A pair of guests, first-timer William and repeat visitor Logan arrive at Westworld with different expectations and agendas. Bernard and Quality Assurance head Theresa Cullen debate whether a recent host anomaly is contagious. Meanwhile, behavior engineer Elsie Hughes tweaks the emotions of Maeve, a madam in Sweetwater’s brothel, in order to avoid a recall. Cocky programmer Lee Sizemore pitches his latest narrative to the team, but Dr. Ford has other ideas. The Man in Black conscripts a condemned man, Lawrence, to help him uncover Westworld’s deepest secrets.
Directed by: Richard J. Lewis
Written by: Jonathan Nolan & Lisa Joy
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u/cclynch92 Oct 08 '16
The scene with Teddy at the bar had me thinking. Is there a way Westworld deals with "griefers" in the park? I know I'd be pissed if I was having a conversation with a host that might lead to some adventure happening, and some asshole shot him. Especially if that same asshole followed me around shooting every host I talk to.
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u/Lavacop Oct 08 '16
When the Man in Black was shooting up the village, the tech asked if he should slow him down. So it would seem the staff are aware of troublesome guests and have ways to deal with them.
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u/I_joined_too_late Oct 16 '16
Begs the question: what could the staff actually DO about him? You cant harm the guests. Cause a gun malfunction that leads to a capture? What about his knife?
We have seen that staff can redirect protocols to pick up the slack of other hosts, but that can only go so far.
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Oct 11 '16
I found myself thinking that if this town has no jail where you can be locked up, it's not a real wild west experience. It's like a game with god mode on.
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u/Redditing-Dutchman Oct 12 '16
Thats exactly the feeling I had with the last MiB scene when the 'cousins' showed up. Isn't it boring as hell to 'play' like this? Especially for so many years. I remember having some magical armour in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion which made me invincible and it was so boring I stopped playing. Then again a videogame doesn't really hurt you when you get shot.
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u/rickebones Oct 10 '16
That's actually a hilarious concept. I know I have a few asshole friends that would troll me by following me around shooting any host that I was trying to engage. Banging a hooker? BAM, she's dead before you climax! Have the piano player play your favorite tune? BAM, he's dead before the best part of the song! Note to self: Don't take asshole friends to Westworld!
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Oct 09 '16
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u/romafa Oct 10 '16
I imagine that people understand the nature of the park and are fully willing to submit their kids to it. Also, it looks to take place in a future when people are more desensitized to violence (probably because you can act out violent fantasies without consequence against androids).
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u/NiftyDolphin Oct 11 '16
From the terms and conditions:
(a) You dissolve Delos, Inc. of any responsibility financial or criminal that would result from dismemberment, broken bones, heart failure, loss or loss of use of hand and foot digits, shock, marital and relational strife, child endangerment, psychological trauma, delusions or hallucinations resulting from the realistic nature of the park experience, and/or any other physical, emotional, and psychological effects resulting from strenuous park activities.
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u/WiredAlYankovic Oct 07 '16
"That gentleman gets whatever he wants."
So not everyone is aware of who he is, but security knows to leave him alone.
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u/zeta_cartel_CFO Oct 07 '16
I'm thinking he gets that treatment the way high-rollers get treated at casinos in Vegas.
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u/wickedsmaht Oct 07 '16
I don't think he's any regular new comer. To have been visiting West World for thirty years he would have spent literally millions of dollars. I get that the park is meant for the ultra rich but that's insane
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u/WiredAlYankovic Oct 07 '16
Not regular, no, but another possibility is that he has a lot of privileges because he or his family were in the original incident 30 years ago.
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u/kougrizzle Oct 07 '16
I took that as he is a paying customer and gets what he wants. I didn't think they meant he has special treatment compared to other paying guests....hmm
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u/RTukka Oct 07 '16
The fact that the one guy asked if they should "slow him down" suggests that they do sometimes intervene to prevent guests from doing anything too disruptive -- he wouldn't have asked that otherwise (unless he was new and didn't know better).
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u/staircar Oct 07 '16
According to Aedan on the website, you can only stay 28 days before having to leave. I wonder if they make him do the same.
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Oct 07 '16
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
My guess is that MIB is related to the last malfunction the park had. He has been there 30 years (or returning for that long) and the last malfunction was 30 years ago. I propose he has a unlimited mileage black card type deal. The way network tv show security bro says "He gets whatever he wants" kind of put it that MIB is above all guests.
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u/holayeahyeah Oct 07 '16
My theory since the scalping scene has been he is playing an ARG and has confused it for a "real" conspiracy. Something I think would be really cool is if he is NOT a rich guy. He is just some guy who got a lifetime pass as a settlement for an incident at the park and the storyline he is following is literally the only thing in his loser life.
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u/Reddwheels Oct 07 '16
Maeve waking up and seeing the lab gave me chills. It was better than when Neo wakes up in the Matrix. It showed us labs that we've already become familiar with in ep1, but letting us see it again through Maeve's perspective was done brilliantly. Now the question is, will Maeve remember all this.
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u/outline01 Oct 07 '16
This is being overshadowed by a lot of the other (granted, fantastic) scenes.
Her waking up in the 'real world', entirely contrasts the 'real guests' waking up in Westworld. She sees the labs while in character, while a genuine personality. Think about how terrifying that would be to her - not to mention she also has a gaping hole in her stomach.
I don't really understand the implication of this yet, but feel that it's an important moment that ties into a big theme in the show.
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u/Reddwheels Oct 07 '16
Very important if she can remember all this and talk about it later. Maybe she will teach others how to stay awake.
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u/funkyb Oct 10 '16 edited Oct 10 '16
I'm curious if the cut open stomach was deliberate symbolism to represent the daughter she "lost".
The fact that it was MRSA was a great choice though: a problem that was thought to be under control until a small change suddenly let it escape all our safeguards and begin killing.
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u/spike021 Oct 08 '16
Yeah, plus in ep. 1 there was some question of the concept of feeling "real". Specifically with Dolores, IIRC, but then I think Maeve was asked, possibly by Dolores if she was real. I'm probably wrong but something like that came up, I think.
If so, that could bring about an existential crisis.
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u/Vaquero_Pescador Oct 15 '16 edited Oct 15 '16
I think it's significant that her 'dream' while on the operation table for abdominal pain involves the potential loss of a daughter to the MiB. He's after her womb to find the maze which he learned from a young girl is located where a snake lays its eggs.
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u/The_Event_Horizonx1 Oct 07 '16
Truly a stand out scene! I feel like we get 2-3 of these every episode. If Westworld can keep this pace up, it is on its way to the HBO hall of fame in my book.
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u/mobani Oct 07 '16
It was like out of some horror movie where they stole organs from drugged people.
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
So my question is re the Indian/"Savage" turning into MIB at the door. This show is all about clues (more than Lost was even) and I can't see that being just a stylistic choice. MIB is death in that moment, worse than all she has seen before.
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u/dcl131 Oct 07 '16
I took it to be a past experience she had while living a different narrative, and MiB has been scalping people looking for the map.
What I want to know is why he bled out Kissy almost to the point of death
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u/nyxieway Oct 07 '16
I have a feeling that MiB/anyone looking for the maze has to fulfill certain quests in a certain way. The way he killed Kissy was so specific. And in episode 2, when he shoots up the whole village, it's almost immediately after he kills the mother that the little girl "shuts off" and gives him the clue. It felt very structured, with the way he knew the cousins were coming and had exactly the right amount of bullets.
I don't know. It seems logical that guests wanting to play at a higher level or find the maze had to pass certain "quests" or steps to get there to prove they really wanted it.
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u/13Foxtrot Oct 07 '16
IF you remember the conversation the analysts were talking about "Do they dream?" And the lady said no, but they can have nightmares in case someone forgets to erase them. It helps the hosts make explanations for what happened in their past.
The MiB came for her scalp, and caused more or less PTSD. Well now she's starting to regain memories of the past, so she has built in nightmares to make her understand it wasnt real. So the savage turning into MiB is her realizing that her nightmare isnt just a nightmare...it was real. And it wasn't savages that killed her child and scalped her.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 09 '16
The last thing Maeve saw before she "woke up" in the lab was the MIB, he was in her memory/dream, he somehow replaced the guy that was hunting her. I don't know how he managed to project himself into Maeve's memory(through the maze?) but I think it was incredibly significant that he was the last thing she saw before she "woke up" during the surgery/maintenance session. It seems like the MIB may be spending so much time in Westworld with the intention to wake the hosts up, making them self-aware would certainly be a challenge, perhaps it would enhance the entire experience for him. I'm not sure where the maze comes in, but I think it may have coincided with entering the memories of the hosts, as he seemingly did with Maeve before she woke up in the lab during maintenance.
The MIB said he's been visiting Westworld for 30 years, and it seems like his intention is unlocking the hosts' ability to think freely or attain free-will. I think he realized long ago that the only way to assist the hosts in attaining self-awareness is through trauma. Maybe only traumatic memories are retained in the hosts' "subconscious" and that's why he makes the hosts suffer so much trauma, or he's just a sadist who never gets bored of torturing the same robots ad nauseam. It seems like he's doing so much more than just playing a game or acting out his sadistic tendencies. In Ep2 he mentioned that "when you're suffering, you're most real" which seems to indicate that he's trying to make the hosts connect with their sentience/self-awareness by making them suffer profoundly.
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Oct 08 '16
Speaking about turning, did you notice the similarity between the indians and the physical lab people? The colors and patterns resembled the indians and since she had nightmares of being scalped it's possible that her nightmares were she remembering she was being operated on in a way.
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u/tjsterc17 Oct 07 '16
It gave me a crazy MiB theory. Somehow, I think the MiB is a host-like being whose soul purpose is to keep Westworld in check. He pervades their dreams (nightmares), he invokes fear where ever he goes. Basically I think his purpose is to inflict pain and suffering. It's been shown several times that pain and suffering is what leads to the hosts' enlightenment, so I think the MiB's mission is backfiring. His infliction of pain was to be a "random" and chaotic element that will reinforce repression. It has to be random so the hosts' code can't account for it and filter it out somehow. His mission, this maze, whatever he's doing. It's all going to shit. And he will NOT like failing his mission or realizing he isn't actually human...
Or, ya know, something else entirely.
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u/FullFlava Oct 07 '16
Yeah my current theory is that MIB is Westworld's Chaos Monkey
Deliberately designed to break the rules, to test the resiliency of the system.
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u/DonovanKreed Oct 07 '16
Anyone else feel incredibly bad for the old man who gets stabbed in the fucking hand?
And it seemed William was intrigued by what he was saying too, until his friend ruined the whole interaction.
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u/ps_ Oct 07 '16
until his friend ruined the whole interaction.
to say the least. but really, i think william's character is supposed to put a non-psychopath into the world for us audience to relate to. i found that scene to be absolutely awful even though it was far from the worst that we've seen so far.
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Oct 07 '16
Yeah I think the kindness of William is really going to set up some of the greater conflicts for the season. We get to see who he really becomes with this sin all around him.
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u/CaldwellCladwell Oct 07 '16
For the audience to relate to? I'm sure the audience can relate to the guy stabbing the old man at the table, as much as the other guy helping the old man from off the floor.
Black hat, white hat: West World allows you to wear both.
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16
William and his friend are the main characters from the 1973 film. I'm guessing William will be our "main" protagonist/hero. If that is the case, then I think it is awesome they didn't introduce him until episode 2. They set up the whole world and live in it before introducing the character we will follow throughout.
PS - I put main in quotes because obviously this is an ensemble show.
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u/Deinen0 Oct 07 '16
I really loved that entire premise. It reminded me when you first invite a friend to a new MMO and you have to constantly have to wait for them while they check out every little meaningless thing while you're screaming in your head "Oh come on already!"
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u/j4yne Oct 07 '16
Heh, me too. But it reminded me of exactly the opposite -- that friend whose played this particular mission/bounty/strike a hundred times, and ruins your first playthrough cause he's too impatient.
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u/theredditoro Oct 07 '16
Yep. The friend is a dick.
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u/realsavvy Oct 07 '16
Once Dolores goes ape, I hope that guy is the first one to bite it.
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u/Rivershort Oct 07 '16
It made me wonder how the park would prevent a guest from stabbing another human.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 07 '16
I hated William's friend. He's being such an annoying prick and he's breaking the immersion for William, and just being an obnoxious douchebag all-around.
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u/wickedsmaht Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Request to have a counter in the sidebar for the number of times Teddy dies
Edit: or as u/gyoza1138 pointed out the number of bullets he has taken
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u/FRIENDSHIP_MASTER Oct 07 '16
I have a feeling that, pretty soon, he will die much less frequently.
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u/mixdontmatch Oct 07 '16
anyone have the count after two episodes?
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u/Corn_Palace Oct 07 '16
Killed by: MiB,Host clearance, Drunk guest
got 3 by my count
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Oct 07 '16
Loved seeing the guests arriving and entering the park. That whole transition from walking through the door to being on the moving train was awesome.
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u/ps_ Oct 07 '16
i thought the early focus on the new guests was my favorite part of the episode. i guess it helped to better set up the world that westworld is a part of even if we didn't actually see anything outside it!
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Oct 07 '16
Yeah it definitely answered a lot of questions
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u/clayru Oct 07 '16
I wouldn't have made it past the first room...
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u/toomanylizards Oct 07 '16
After the episode, my roommate said "I'd be fine just going to Changingroomworld"
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Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Yeah, I wonder how they deal with guests who won't willingly leave. I know it would be tough for me to leave.
EDIT: I'm talking about the whole park
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u/bicranium Oct 07 '16
Watching the first episode one of the things I wanted most was to see people entering the park and very next episode... http://i.imgur.com/Ku0f4tu.gifv
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u/BklynMoonshiner Oct 07 '16
I can't wait to talk about the host at the beginning with my wife. The other scene with the temporary madam reinforces it. Is this cheating?!?
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u/nonliteral Oct 07 '16
Is this cheating?!?
No, just masturbation with a very expensive sex toy.
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u/PirateNinjaa Oct 07 '16
I would be careful in that conversation, don't tell her you want to bang the hosts and don't consider it cheating.
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Oct 08 '16
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u/NihiloZero Oct 08 '16
Im totally confused, and wonder if the writers planned it that way.
Yeah, even in the context of a sci-fi fantasy world it didn't make much sense to me that they could go from a stationary room into what seems to be an actually moving train.
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u/Adam87 Oct 10 '16
Ford takes an elevator "above ground" it seems. I think the park and Wild West is above ground and just remote. Everything else is underground. The area that William is in looks like the old basement level from Ep. 1 so IMO William was already at the complex with the woman and in that room.
The bar room and train car could be an elevator that just locks into position inside the tunnel then starts moving into the park.
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Oct 07 '16
Holy shit, Dolores has a real gun that fires real bullets.
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u/stellartrekker Oct 07 '16
What about knives? What keeps the guests from stabbing each other?
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u/expensivepens Oct 07 '16
Yeah I think a functional host is like unable to hurt another living thing. That's why they said a host "literally couldn't hurt a fly" and then at the end of episode 2 Delores smacks that fly on her neck.
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Oct 07 '16
all the guns in westworld work the same way. i just think its meant to imply she went from not hurting a fly, to killing a fly at the end of ep1 and now in ep2 she has a gun.
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u/tuna_HP Oct 08 '16
Is that how it works? I have been thinking that the guns somehow technologically will only kill robots. Like maybe they fire harmless pellets but when they hit robots, the robots internally simulate being shot. Otherwise jeez you would think that they would have to very clearly label which guns were real. The thought of mixing real and fake guns like you suggest goes against every principle of firearms safety.
I think that Dolores finding the gun could be more about memories than that she necessarily found a lethal gun.
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Oct 07 '16
So, why does everyone think that Dolores was lead to discovering a gun with real bullets? I see there being three possibilities.
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Somebody wants the Man in Black dead.
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Somebody wants a Delos employee dead.
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Somebody wants a random guest killed so that the park will be shut down.
Any other possibilities?
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u/Autobrot Oct 07 '16
Someone has an agenda we don't yet understand because the show creators don't want us to know yet.
We the viewers are the man in the maze.
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u/MisterCheeks Oct 09 '16
Great, time to get scalpin fans of the show to get more info...
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Oct 08 '16
Well if a guest were killed, the board would probably be very unhappy with management. Could just be a corporate sabotage thing.
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u/workguy2345 Oct 11 '16
Well who led her? It was Jeffrey Wright's character, right? I would think his agenda is just an extension of Ford's, which seems to be true consciousness for the hosts. The third of those options seems most likely to further spread the "awakening."
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Oct 08 '16
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u/PurpsMaSquirt Oct 09 '16
But if the gun she found represented a sort of Turing Test, perhaps whoever or whatever guided her there is trying to see if she will overcome her programming to take a life.
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u/ScubaSteveEL Oct 08 '16
Seeing William and his coworker in the restaurant was like playing Mass Effect. Two different Shepherds even when the white hat knows it's fake, he can't help but show empathy. Such an interesting dynamic and it's that subtle feeling I get when I always play "paragon" or light side in any game.
Can't bring myself to be an asshole in games when given the choice.
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u/i_make_song Oct 10 '16
I enjoy playing both extremes in games but I definitely almost always prefer playing the "good guy".
Same with movies, TV shows, books, etc. It's hard for me to enjoy a villains' story arch. I understand that it's fiction, but I still can't like the character to their full potential unless I would have made the same choice.
I watched all of Breaking Bad and thought it was great, but I still didn't "enjoy" it. I guess I'm weird like that. Hopefully William will be a really good guy because so far that looks like where his character is headed.
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u/antonius22 Oct 10 '16
I am the same way. Oddly enough though, I enjoy even the worst characters on GoT for some reason. The only ones that are the good guys are Ned and Jon. But they are shadowed by my love of Tyrion and The Hound.
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u/drewdaddy213 Oct 13 '16
Same here. I've started so many games with the intention playing an evil character and I just can't. I do a few selfish things to start off and then slowly fall back to being helpful.
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u/Redditing-Dutchman Oct 12 '16
I do to. But the weird (scary) thing is that once I play the 'renegade' side it feels wrong in the beginning but then becomes really easy to do after a while.
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u/myslead Oct 11 '16
I always do my first run as the good guy and then I try it the "Renegade" way on my second playthrough just to see what happens. Pretty much the dynamic of William who's a first timer and his coworker who isn't at his first run of the said game ahah.
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u/doooom Oct 13 '16
It reminded me of playing KOTOR back in the day. I always played Light Side to the point of being maxed out way early in the game. I had the hardest time playing Dark Side. I remember talking to a friend later on who could never get through a Light Side playthrough because he always had to do Dark Side things.
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u/FugginIpad Nov 03 '16
I know what you mean. I often think "well it might be fun/interesting if I did this evil thing right now" but I can never bring myself to do it.
When I play Witcher 3, I don't steal from places where commoners live for this reason.
And if I could go to Westworld I'd sure as shootin' want to do the right thing whenever I could. That is, after I stop tripping on how real the androids are.
But then again... If I found myself in a town full of nothing but hosts my mind would start considering all the possibilities in spite of itself... Oh shit.
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u/kougrizzle Oct 07 '16
Man, I'm kind of pissed we didn't get to hear the details of the quest that grandpa with the eye patch was going to give. He was persistent, could have been worth a ton of exp.
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Oct 07 '16
I want that option in an MMORPG
*Decline request, stab questgiver then go bed a bunch of hookers
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u/RTukka Oct 07 '16
He was persistent, could have been worth a ton of exp.
I took his persistence as a clue that it was a training wheels quest meant for noobs like William, so even the most oblivious and passive of guests would find themselves doing something. If you've ever been the Game Master in a sandbox tabletop game you know that if you don't railroad certain players they won't end up doing anything.
As much of an asshole Logan may be, he probably has the right idea when it comes to getting to the more compelling parts of the park. If you're paying $40k/day there's good reason to skip the tutorial to get straight to the good stuff.
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u/Fionnlagh Oct 09 '16
Depends, though; I've seen tabletop sessions that last forever with nothing real happening because the players just love fucking with the world. Westworld isn't just a series of branching storylines, it's a world to explore. Who says the good stuff isn't just chilling in town, getting in bar fights and fucking hookers all day, for some people?
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u/flantastic10 Oct 07 '16
"Just over the river I know of a treasure. I'll give you the map but first a settlement needs your help!....."
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u/ilikeballoons Oct 07 '16
The reward is a gun worse than the one you are currently using and 20 coins!
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u/Tjw5083 Oct 07 '16
He was really selling me on that treasure, and it was just across the river! I would definitely be a William. Banging hookers and killing people would get pretty boring to me. I'd rather go with my wife and have us go on treasure hunts.
At least that way you feel like you've accomplished something.
These guests are so rich (presumably) that they could clearly bang most people in real life, I honestly don't see the perks in spending 100K ~ 1M just to bang and kill robots.
Send me on a 3 week treasure hunt? That's something I can talk about for years back home.
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Oct 09 '16
Totally agreed. It was refreshing when William turned down the hooker. Speaking of hookers I hope this future world has some kind of clean up and disinfectant for this hookers ewwwww I would hate to end up stirring the milk
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u/DarthTigris Oct 07 '16
People pay that much to do things with no consequences, like many do with certain video games.
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Oct 07 '16
Who was the child that Ford runs into when he goes for a walk? It was the middle of nowhere and there was nobody else in sight. I get the feeling that it was a host that Ford created to remind him of someone, possibly even himself when he was a child.
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u/Phryme Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
My guess: His son (who I assume died somehow at around that age.)
Just some evidence: 1.) Who else in WestWorld has a British accent? 2.) He does more than treat him well, he teaches him. (Seems fatherly.) 3.)This is probably a kind of ritual for him, and he wants to show his creation to his kid even if only in a symbolic way. 4.) He seems heartbroken at the end when he tells (commands) him to leave.
Not to mention: He did this in secret, and he 100% knew the kid would be there. Nothing happens in this world by chance.
EDIT: a word.
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u/MarsFalcon Oct 07 '16
Another piece of evidence is that Ford quotes his father, saying "only boring people get bored", and the kid replies "mine too". Makes sense that Ford's father used to tell Ford the above sentence and Ford also told it to his son.
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
This show is breaking my head. Fucking Nolans. It's Back To The Future, Groundhog Day, Terminator, A great porn, and GTA/Red Dead.
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u/kawa1888 Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
The hooker has a British accent.
EDIT: Mae
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u/freelollies Oct 09 '16
I think the kid is a version of Ford when he was young. A kind of nostalgic remembrance that he humors himself with
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u/kawa1888 Oct 07 '16
The end scene has him showing Bernard to the storyline he's been creating to that same spot so I'm guessing a new host character.
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u/staircar Oct 07 '16
Perhaps the new storyline confuses whose a host and whose a guest. Because at first, it appeared that child was a guest.
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Oct 07 '16
No idea why the title is Chestnut.
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u/frauleinjosephine Oct 07 '16
Chestnut is an old slang word for a song that keeps repeating
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u/jillaaa Oct 10 '16
It's also a British term. And indicates not only repetition, but also that listeners are gravely tired of hearing it.
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u/tjsterc17 Oct 07 '16
Still trying to figure this one out as well.
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u/madnessman Oct 07 '16
I thought it might have something to do with Shakespearean iconography. Found this book but it doesn't seem to be anything meaningful or relevant.
Also found this blog article which claims that chestnuts are associated with prevention and foresight. Apparently Lost may have alluded to this:
This article just proved how genius the show LOST is to me. In the episode called “Flashes Before Your Eyes” when Desmond is in the past talking to the “white haired lady from the jewelry store” (later to be known as Eloise Faraday)and he’s trying to prevent certain things from happening in the future and to save Charlie from dying, he asks Eloise, “Who are you” just before she tells him that he cant change certain events from unfolding, she responds with “Do you like Chestnuts?” Prevention and foresight, eh?
Lost was produced by JJ Abrams so it could be possible that he's using chestnuts as a symbol in both shows. It's a stretch but it's all I can come up with right now.
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u/spike021 Oct 07 '16
I didn't get a good look but did the gun at the end that Dolores found have a wooden handle? Could possibly be made of chestnut, if so.
(if someone wants to screenshot it, that would be great)
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Oct 07 '16
We need some theories, people are ignoring this, but I have no idea...
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u/dukedevil0812 Oct 07 '16
Obviously there is a lot of religious symbolism in this show. Ford is clearly very comfortable playing God, and to him Westworld is the Garden of Eden (why do you think we saw him with a snake this episode). Delores is Eve, she has been given the gift of knowledge which could ultimately lead to Westworld's downfall. The other staff feel like angels, constantly trying to please God and his whims, acting in unseen ways towards the hosts.
But what does the Man in Black represent? He could be our Satan. While Ford is trying to create a perfect world, he is looking to destroy it from the inside. Or he could be the snake, an agent of chaos that is so unpredictable that he cause a fundamental change in everyone he interacts with.
Lots to think about.
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u/tgcp Oct 07 '16
Ford, Man in Black, Garden of Eden.
That comment could be in a Lost discussion thread and only look slightly put of place.
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u/ReducedToRubble Oct 08 '16 edited Oct 08 '16
There's some Greek symbolism, too. Their command center is situated atop a mountain (Olympus) while the decommissioned hosts are underground (the Underworld). They even had the water to represent the river Styx (or maybe Lethe, considering the theme of forgetting).
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u/the_revo1u7ionary Oct 07 '16
At first I thought the snake was a reference to the original Westworld movie where the snake biting a guest was one of the first signs things were going off the rails. "That's not supposed to happen!"
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u/Konohasappy Oct 07 '16
Well thought out comment, I hadn't seen it in this way. This is what I like most about the discussions when a show is still airing.
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Oct 07 '16
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u/web_cake Oct 10 '16
As he delivers the line about the devil, his reflection is featured prominently on the glass door. Once he finishes that line he steps away and the reflection is no longer part of the scene. I interpreted that scene as emphasizing the duality of his role as creator.
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u/muddisoap Oct 08 '16
Makes it sound like he knows the MiB intimately. I wonder if they are related or former coworkers or some such. Just seems they know each other or something. Maybe. As a side note, I love how Ford just wears clothes that are almost western style around the lab and control center. That way he just puts on some boots and a hat and goes in and then he blends right in. Pretty cool. I also wanted to see where that elevator went. Did it go back underground. Or was there a box above ground that remained. How do you call it??
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Oct 07 '16
Poor Teddy.
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u/Guildenpants Oct 07 '16
I love that James Marsden, a man who traditionally plays Baxters, has taken a role that is literally a programmed Baxter.
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u/BklynMoonshiner Oct 07 '16
Elaborate please. I feel like I know what you mean.
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u/beermeupscotty Oct 08 '16
I have never heard the term "baxter" used outside of referencing the movie.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
You know, I've never found James Marsden particularly attractive, but there's something about him in cowboy garb. Damn. He looks fine.
So does William. I'm grappling with the concept of finding one of the McPoyles attractive.
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u/Keitaro_Urashima Oct 10 '16
There's also a lot of scenes with milk... all he needs is his bathrobe and we have a crossover.
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Oct 07 '16
He's my favorite character so far, literally pissed me off when that drunk guy killed him.
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u/emilyturing Oct 08 '16
totally, especially when his body was cleaned back at headquarter, that desperate look on his face is just ...
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u/minibini Oct 13 '16
Ted seems to be a whipping boy when he's in town, but as a previous newcomer has mentioned, once they go out of town and further out to explore, Ted becomes a completely different character, "a guide."
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u/tinoynk Oct 18 '16
Yea but he also says that they end up using him as target practice, still sounds like he's getting the short end of the stick.
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u/Phryme Oct 07 '16
Dolores has a real gun. Mae witnesses droids getting serviced, which to her looks like something out of a concentration camp. Dolores and Mae are both becoming more self-aware. THIS CAN ONLY END WELL, RIGHT?
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Oct 07 '16
That Mae scene is one of the most traumatizing situations I've seen be portrayed in television.
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u/2BZ2P Oct 07 '16
I was a little surprised by how inept the technicians were...surely they would know a vocal command to return a Host to a 'Sleep' or 'Off' State? The training is pretty slipshod if that is not the case, but that seemed lame to me....
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
Same here. Imaging waking up from surgery, in severe pain, bleeding from an open incision and seeing what Maeve saw. I was gripping my own side during that entire scene. It was terrifying.
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Oct 08 '16
I imagine it being like all the alien abduction stories you hear about. They weren't getting anal probed, it's just they woke up while our caretakers were cleaning up the aftermath of a particular bad raping by a new comer.
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u/FlobiKenobi Oct 10 '16
What did I miss that implies that the gun Dolores finds is real?? I keep seeing this be said. Are we just assuming?
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u/2cats2hats Oct 08 '16
Mae witnesses droids getting serviced
This scene reminded me of Cloud Atlas future scenes.
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u/ragnarockette Oct 09 '16
It seemed like "these violent delights have violent ends" is a virus, which Delores spread to Maeve.
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Oct 10 '16
Maeve also sees Teddy naked among the bodies; that's what really traumatizes her in that android reclamation room
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u/notQuiteBritish Oct 07 '16
I was on the fence about Bernard being a "host" last episode, but this one made me really lean towards believing it.
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Bernard has secret conversations with Dolores and perhaps leads her to a gun (real or not). He kind of also blocks his department's investigation by saying Dolores doesn't need to be rechecked and "everything is fine."
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Ford telling Bernard - "I know how that head of yours works," which would make sense if Ford created Bernard.
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During the sleeping scene: Bernard tells her that the hosts need to practice talking to become more human. After, Cullen says to Bernard - "Is that what you're doing now? Practicing?"
This, plus the scene last week with him whispering to the father before cold storage makes me believe Bernard is a host that Ford created. Ford seems to have a bigger agenda that he's hiding from the corporation here, and having Bernard as the head of Programming might be his way of ensuring AI of the hosts continues to develop, even without Ford's explicit input.
God this story is so engrossing and there were so many wtf moments this episode! Anyone have an idea where the MiB's plot is going? It seems confirmed that there is a deeper level to the game that's programmed into Westworld. Is the MiB's "I feel like I was born here" meant to be taken more literally?
Ahhh I want more!
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16
In the 1973 film the human engineers don't actually know the complexities of the AI anymore; they created AI to program even more complex AI because they hit a wall themselves. Perhaps Bernard is head of programming because only his advanced robot brain is enough to upgrade the systems anymore. This could also explain why Ford's involvement in the update led to mistakes, because he is human and the code is getting to be too complex for him.
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u/TheSirusKing Oct 08 '16
Imagine if the entire place, including the research lab, is also fake? If the entire thing is an AI research centre attempting to create a singularity?
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u/theredditoro Oct 07 '16
If Bernard is AI, then his relationship with Ford is probably what you describe and is not what I thought it was which was more mentor and protégé.
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u/AshleyisaPeach Oct 07 '16
what if Bernard is AI, but ford has programmed him to believe he is human, and so they have the relationship of mentor and protege... but if before the series began, bernard had begun to suspect and figure thing out, seeking help from the oldest robot in the park, Dolores, who must have some of the most in depth memories of Dr. Ford.
but man, what an episode
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u/MonstaGraphics Oct 07 '16
plus the scene last week with him whispering to the father before cold storage makes me believe Bernard is a host that Ford created.
I think he issues the "shut down indefinitely" command. He whispers it because the security team shouldn't have access to those words (They are low level security, and could leak/sell that information)
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u/ImShadowbannedAMA Oct 07 '16
That scene with Cullen and Bernard is the one that made me really consider this theory. That seemed like a pretty explicit hint to this idea.
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u/eRodY Oct 07 '16
That scene actually felt more like a red herring to me. It was a little on the nose.
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u/Sojourner_Truth Oct 07 '16
I'm not sold on whether or not Bernard is a host but I'm pretty sure that at least someone in the control room is, and when the show gets to that point where a "real" person finally freezes or somehow other gives away the suprise, well, it's gonna be fucking awesome.
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u/fromthepharcyde Oct 07 '16
So whose bright idea was it to tattoo the map of a mysterious maze on the underside of a bar pianist's scalp, when the location to said maze is only known by a convicted Spanish outlaw?
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u/Iggy_Pops_Lost_Shirt Oct 08 '16
It's like a gaming myth "in order to get the super secret gold gun you gotta jump in this corner 150 times then finish the level without shooting anything!!!"
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u/machine_made Oct 08 '16
My thought is that the maze and any connections to it are essentially an Easter egg by WestWorld's creator(s), perhaps Ford himself. That's why the young girl is out of character when she gives the information to the MiB.
He's played every part of the game, as it would exist to any guest, and after 30 years of playing the regular game, he's discovered clues to a game within the game.
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Oct 10 '16
I got the feeling it's under a bunch of different character's scalps. We saw the Man in Black participate in scalping a family. Perhaps that's how he discovered the maze the first time. Who knows how many hosts he's scalped since then, looking for mazes? But the bar pianist was part Native American, and the maze seems related to story lines about them, because they were with the MiB when he was in the storyline with Maeve.
Could be that's part of the reason why Ford looked at Sizemore's "Indians on the Red River" quest and nixed it. He's already got a storyline going with them.
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Oct 09 '16
There was an easter egg in the arcade version of Donkey Kon that took 20 years to find. Imagine how fun it would be to hide secrets in Westworld? Ford talks about how small details keeppeoplecoming back to the park too.
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u/SDJ67 Oct 08 '16
convicted Spanish outlaw's daughter
But also, imagine if the MIB had shown up 5 minutes too late for the hanging.
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u/Fourbits Oct 09 '16
Presumably, he could just wait until the storyline is reset.
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u/Buckets_of_Shame Oct 07 '16
How many more times is Teddy going to be unceremoniously killed?
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Oct 07 '16
Till he starts doing the killing
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u/emilyturing Oct 08 '16
theory: maybe to protect dolores and his death will be part of the reason why dolores starts to rebel
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
Judging from the previews (NO SPOILERS) a certain person dude seems to be leveled up.
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u/kawa1888 Oct 07 '16
Aside from all the other great shit, this episode brought humor to the show. It's not gonna be deadly serious all the time! Shows that take themselves too seriously are a drag. (Season 2 of True Detective)
I loved that the humor was full of dramatic contrasts.
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The white hat and black hat guests had a funny dynamic mixed with a sense of unease that his "friend" is an overbearing and a tad psycho.
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Ford saying no to Sizemore and then asking for some boots. (This also revealed that the show is actually about HBO views itself.)
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The surgery repair scene escape blended humor and true horror really, really well.
And more I'm probably forgetting.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
I was grasping my own abdomen when poor Maeve was running around with an open incision. It's really terrifying that the hosts are programmed to feel both physical and emotional pain.
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u/aray07 Oct 10 '16
I thought it was interesting when they detected MRSA in Maeve's abdomen. I had wondered earlier if the hosts could catch and subsequently spread STDs to guests-- now it appears they can.
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u/abhorrent_creature Oct 08 '16
Feel or display the feeling? It may look terrifying to human, but to her it may have been just pre programmed animations that she plays in "scared" mode. To early to treat hosts as totally human in my opinion.
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Oct 10 '16
yes, intellectually i understand that human thrill of being able to inflict pain on 'someone' who looks human but isn't (technically) alive but at the same time, i'm horrified at what this type of vacation would do to a human psyche. some people would be affected by this and bring it into their normal life.
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u/slbain9000 Oct 13 '16
Nah. I learned from Prometheus that abdominal wounds are really no big deal. ;)
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u/ReducedToRubble Oct 08 '16
Ford saying no to Sizemore and then asking for some boots. (This also revealed that the show is actually about HBO views itself.)
This was my favorite part. There is a clear contrast between the surface-level and what is deeper. So far they've portrayed the violence as being the deeper level, mostly through the characters participating in the violence. But this seemed to suggest that the black-hat 'cheap thrill' people are just as "basic" as the people who stay on the beaten path and follow the white-hat route.
Ultimately, I think this series is building up not toward a question of good vs. evil or even guest vs. host, but of potential vs. stagnation, or self-improvement and actualization vs. primal impulses. And the new storyline in Westworld is meant to separate those who have potential from those who are stagnant - guest and host alike.
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u/kawa1888 Oct 08 '16
I'm gonna frame this comment.
They're laying the threads for these themes in plain sight under the guise of "dark impulses".
Ford talking about the ceiling of evolution.
Theresa calling Sizemore useless for only seeing the broadest picture, and not the details.
MIB, hosts, even park marketing are all about "looking deeper."
The HBO/Entertainment industry parallel is about how deep fictional experiences (or...art) allows people to discover the truth, if they can see it.
This sub is already a parallel of this. So much surface level analysis about (MIB collecting Easter eggs, how guns work, can you eat a robot fish, they're selling robots to the military etc.) but the deeper stuff is going to be hard to find and we're gonna have to sift through it all to find the "things we thought no one else had noticed."
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u/CQME Oct 12 '16
The chubby dude and his wife getting all thrilled he shot the bandit in the neck right before he gave his "big speech".
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u/DrivingEngineer Oct 08 '16
I'd be pissed if MiB was at Westworld while I was a guest there. "Hey, let's check out that cool looking town! Wait, nevermind, that asshole already killed everyone here."
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u/slbain9000 Oct 13 '16
That could easily happen without the MiB. This is like a MMORPG, and you know there will be lots of griefer assholes.
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Oct 07 '16
Can someone who knows about biology weigh in on the implications of MRSA being able to survive in the hosts?
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u/ps_ Oct 07 '16
how about the fact that the hosts are unmistakably human (anatomically) and require full fledged surgery for repair? am i the only one who was surprised by this?
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
I'm really glad we got confirmation that the hosts are indeed made of biological material, like blood, tissue, etc.
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u/StockmanBaxter Oct 12 '16
I personally think those technicians are only there to remove foreign objects from her. Like debris or bullets.
Then the milk machine repairs them.
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u/eric22vhs Oct 07 '16
Happens sometimes as a result from surgeries, and the hosts are killed and put back together often, effectively surgery, so it seems like they're just demonstrating that they're lifelike enough to actually get bacterial infections.
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u/ugahammertime Oct 09 '16
Basically just that they're made of somewhat real flesh. The environment needs to be fairly similar to one that would be found in a human. Temperature's a given, considering their role, but this means lots of nutrients and carbohydrates. The robot flesh is pretty closely modeled after animal designs, and is probably alive.
The MR part isn't really that interesting and I don't know why they'd mention it specifically, or even how they'd know, since I doubt the machines are taking methicilin. Maybe there's some reason they could assume that though, I dunno. I know much more about the bacteria side of micro than the immunology part.
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u/koos-tall Oct 10 '16
According to Wikipedia and WebMD, MRSA (staph) is a bacteria which spreads via contact, e.g. skin to skin contact. A lot of people carry the bacteria on their bodies (or up their nose), but it's harmful when it gets into the body, often through a cut.
Common places for MRSA infections are hospitals, prisons and livestock (symbolic of Westworld?).
My thoughts and speculations are:
a) Infection could be a clue and the person who infected Mauve could be a sinister figure of some sort (MIB perhaps?).
b) MRSA infection is metaphorical for the computer virus spreading among the AI...maybe skin to skin contact is how it spreads?
c) There's nothing to it, and Delos staff (pun intended) simply don't observe proper sanitation procedures.
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u/IBiteYou Oct 09 '16
Weird, too, considering that they had supposedly cured everything in this future and man is immortal.
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16
Can we all agree that Maeve is being prepped to be the first host to snap and kill a guest? Maybe in defense of herself or a fellow working girl?
Also, since they've established a love connection between Dolores and William, I could see Teddy's programmed love for her turning sour and Teddy becoming a crazed host out to kill William or something.
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u/oh_alright_then Oct 08 '16
Yes. Maeve kills or injures a guest and is decommissioned then sent to the cold storage. She 3-2-1s herself awake and is the source of reactivation for all of the other stored units. I hope this happens! Kill all the humans, yay!
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u/gasface Oct 11 '16
Hmm...seems like a really solid guess, but cold storage activation might be the season-ending cliff-hanger.
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u/Brewster-Rooster Oct 08 '16
Well Dolores seems to have a real gun, and has already been shown to harm a living thing, wouldn't she more likely be the first?
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u/Feydazzled Oct 09 '16
And they increased her aggression in one of the builds... so I expect she will remember it.
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u/9mmAndATanookiSuit Oct 07 '16
Radiohead - No Surprises
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u/thevegetexarian Oct 11 '16
from an album about robots and AI.
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u/IAMBREEZUS Oct 15 '16
Erm.... that's really not what the album itself is about. Maybe a song or two, and, I mean, even Paranoid Android is using androids as a metaphor for humans, so it's not explicitly about AI. Certainly the album's themes include fear for rapidly expanding technology. But it's most definitely not "an album about robots and AI."
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u/915red Oct 10 '16
i love how this show has been playing these tunes....soundgarden in the previous episode.
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Oct 11 '16
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u/zotquix Oct 11 '16
Player Piano cover tune. I expect we'll get more -- first episode also had Black Hole Sun and one other one.
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u/WiredAlYankovic Oct 07 '16
So there are child hosts in the park.
I hope they don't go down the worst possible path with that, but it does shoot down some speculation about there being none in the park.
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u/stimulatedecho Oct 07 '16
The did go down a pretty awful one already. Threatening the point blank execution of a child host, one that had just watched her (host) mother get executed. It helped that the emotion of the moment was relieved somewhat when she seemingly broke out of character to provide the location of the maze. In that moment she came across as both less juvenile and less human. Pretty brutal up until that point though.
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u/staircar Oct 07 '16
The idea of a child host lost and alone, away from his parents,gave me the chills. When you think of a sinister reason for placing him there. I, now believe it is Anthony Hopkins as a child.
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u/Where_isJessica_Hyde Oct 07 '16
Did anyone else wonder if Billy, the guy who was given the option to pick between the black hat and the white hat, was a younger version of the MIB? His scenes seemed to be set in the past, both the train journey and the subway station looking different when compared to scenes we've already seen. Perhaps something is going to happen, giving him 'whatever he wants' for the rest of his life, which would also turn him 'evil'.
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Oct 07 '16
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u/tjsterc17 Oct 07 '16
Yup. I think thats what the true end game content is. The MiB says he wants to stay there forever. That, paired with the chapel and his speech in episode one seems to be leaning towards immortality/human consciousness transfer.
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Oct 07 '16
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u/dcl131 Oct 07 '16
I think that is a trigger phrase for some hidden software within the Reverie update purposefully placed there by Ford. He mustve said it to Abernathy and he spread it to Dolores, and so on
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u/FRIENDSHIP_MASTER Oct 07 '16
"Well, is there anything you like about it?"
"What size are those boots?"
Damn, Dr. Ford really took a dump on that guy's idea.