r/Naruto • u/HokageEzio • Feb 21 '16

Discussion Naruto Reread: Volume 26

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8

u/HokageEzio Feb 21 '16

Jumping right into it:

  • I think Sasuke had a definite point (and I thought the same of the last fight, but that's a while from now). Sympathy and empathy are completely different feelings, and it's kinda hard for Naruto to be saying things when he can only sympathize, whereas after Jiraiya, he can empathize with Sasuke's feelings because he's felt them too (even revenge crossed his mind).

  1. I think it's underestimating Itachi or overestimating what he can gain from Orochimaru. Itachi beat his ass when he came to the village. But I understand the sentiment of disregarding Itachi, which was the goal more than it was to spare Naruto (on a whim).

  2. I think Shikaku is the best father of the series so far, and in total as well. But even with just this, he's done more parenting than any other father in the series (unless you count the Hiruzen being a grandfather, because we don't learn yet that Asuma is his son). Then again, his only competition is Gaara's dad... so yeah. I think there was a lot of validity to what he said, and it's why I think it sucks that characters like Shikamaru get pushed to the side (because there's a lot of room for scenes like this, especially with other fathers).

u/jaxspider sticky pls

1

u/Msa9898 Feb 23 '16

agree Shikamaru is one of the best developed characters, sadly him along with everyone else aside from the Jinchuuriki and the Uchiha were made irrelevant later in the story.

12

u/GodStoleMySharingan Feb 21 '16

Im going to answer just number 1

I know how sasuke feels, my parents were both killed in a car crash when I was 8 and I went to a foster home. I lived in foster care for 7 months until they found "parents" for me and was adopted. My new so called parents were complete dickheads and couldnt stand them. But when it was time for bedtime I would lay in my bed and think about my parents. Eveeytime I did this it would bring happiness back in my life and I could sleep being happy. If it werent for those memorys of my parents I dont think I could stand living with them for another 6 years.

So to answer the question I would rather have known my parents then not known them

5

u/HokageEzio Feb 21 '16

Damn, that's rough. You're making me feel bad man...

9

u/Dionysus24779 Feb 21 '16

Part 1 of 4 (yes)

Oh boy oh boy, this is THE one.

Since I knew the timeskip was right around the corner I peeked a volume ahead to see if I should give my little pre-TS retrospective here or next week, but since Kakashi Gaiden actually wasn't its own volume (I totally remembered that wrong) I'll take this chapter as pretty much the beginning of the end.

So here we go:

Chapter 227

I dunno if every translation site has this picture of Naruto in a chuunin jacket included, but I thought it was pretty neat. It's kind of sad that we never really see Naruto go through the ranks and maybe even has to do some missions that go against his idealism. Like what if the Hokage assigns him on an assassination mission or something? But I guess Konoha is the "good guys" village and wouldn't accept stuff like that...

As for the chapter itself... here's another trope I rather dislike. It is the whole "Let your fist/sword express your emotions" thing. It's just silly to me, sure you can roughly gauge someone's willingness to fight or whatever, but some manga/anime treat it like a form of mind reading. Like two people punch each other once and then they suddenly have complete insight of the other person's past and emotions. Though this manga treats it a bit better and doesn't dwell on it.

Naruto's little reflection was kind of disturbing in the sense that as a child he seemed to be happy that Sasuke was now all alone, just like him, and may have been a friend over that common ground, but he was too intimidated by Sasuke's talent.

Though it was awesome how the Kyuubi activates here and in my opinion it would've been much more effective if we didn't see glimpses of it during the fight against Kimimaro, because now he has a real emotional reason, it would've been more impactful.

3/5

Chapter 228

Wow wow wow wow wow wow... I seriously misremembered this so much?

Seems I have given Tsunade way too much credit after all. Previously some people have told me I was being too hard or unfair to her, which is why I jumped ahead a bit and gave her credit for at least handling reinforcements right... but I was wrong!

I assumed Tsunade would send Kakashi and an assembled medical Team after the Suicide Squad the moment they became available, I did honestly not remember that the manga actually shows us this scene.

Tsunade is not only acting again like a blindfolded idiot who thinks there was no better option, but she actually wanted to send Kakashi on a different mission straight away!

And I've checked all versions, plus the anime, to see if that was some translation error or something, but no, she actually did that.

Further she also admitted that she did the bare minimum to provide assistance to the Suicide Squad.

I actually have to give Kakashi big credit here for turning his back to the Hokage to go after his own students, the people he's kind of responsible for. And again I want to stress that the whole Stop-Sasuke-Mission is a strictly timed one, it's not like Tsunade could've said that Kakashi can take a few hours or something to go after them or do whatever he wants.

This is beyond defendable to me, this is pure negligence... I mean... if you've read a few of my chapter comments (thanks btw. means a lot to me) then you know I usually don't say stuff like this... but... fuck Tsunade.

Otherwise we have one more of the many flashbacks that proves that Naruto was never as lonely as he thought he was. Not only did he always have Iruka and the other "troublemakers" at school, but it seems he also had plently of other children to play with as long as the sun was up and he had this friendly unspoken rivalry to Sasuke.

But to end the chapter on a positive note... Sasuke penetrating piercing Naruto did look pretty tough, though if Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto he might've tried to break his heart... well I guess he did that anyway.Though it's unclear how much Sasuke knew that Naruto could take a hit like this, it was still an attack with a killing intent.

And Naruto going berserk after having a small trip inside of his mind was cool too.

1/5

Chapter 229

Sasuke's point here is pretty interesting and one could probably fill an entire book philosophizing about it. Is it worse to loose something you once had, or is it worse to never have it in the first place?

Kind of hard to say and personally I think it greatly depends on what this "something" is. For example... I'm not sad that I'm not rich, but I would probably be upset if I went from being rich to being broke. On the other hand I think it's much harder to loose someone you care about than never having someone like this in the first place, though that's also pretty bad in its own way. It's really hard to say.

And in this particular instance I have to somewhat side with Sasuke. Naruto was always "alone" and grew accustomed to it, even if it was not a good thing for him. But Sasuke had a rather normal family life which was ripped away from him in a rather brutal manner.

Finally Sasuke putting on his headband was kind of a sweet gesture I guess and Sasuke's Sharingan evolving in the midst of combat was pretty unexpected and awesome too. (especially when you see it for the first time)

3/5

Chapter 230

Not that much to say here.

We finally get to see what "Sharingan Vision" looks like, well kind of. And we get to see Naruto and Kurama talking once more and the first apperance of the chakra shroud.

All in all... pretty epic chapter, even if there isn't much to say.

5/5

Chapter 231

It's nice to see Sasuke piecing together just why Naruto is "suddenly" this important and why his brother was more interested in Naruto than him.

The Chakra Shroud is pretty awesome, though I do think it's a bit sad that, once again, Sasuke's new Sharingan upgrade doesn't have much time to shine. Back in the Waveland Arc when he gained his Sharingan against Haku he didn't have the chance to make much use of it as he had to tank a hit for Naruto, and then in the Chuunin Exams he is outmatched by Lee. The first two times he uses his Sharingan it proves ineffective... and now here after getting an upgrade Naruto pretty much instantly gains something that allows him to bypass it.

We also get to finally see Sasuke's CS2 transformation... and well... I'm not a fan of these weird webbed reversed hand-wings... they look so silly. Also his clothes really clash against the new look. You can tell that his clothes weren't made with such a transformation in mind as post-TS his redesign goes quite well with his new form.

Maybe this is a good time to talk about power inflation again though, I don't remember if I did. The problem with transformations and power inflation and the sorting algorythm of evil is that it dictates that when Villain A forces the hero to use a more powerful transformation, then the next Villain B has to be at least that powerful in order to be a challenge.

DBZ suffered quite hard from this, Goku had to achieve SSJ to go up against Freezer, but then Cell, the next enemy, would have to be at least powerful enough to also require the SSJ to stand up against and would have to be even more powerful to be a challenge... so SSJ2 was introduced, then for the next major villain you had the same deal and it resulted in SSJ3... and after that they had to reach for the stars and tap into godhood to keep it up...and then they had to go beyond even that...

Transformations are awesome, they're cool, I'm a fan of them, but they are kind of toxic to having a consistent power level. That is why it is usually such a good idea to add some serious side effects of drawbacks to transformations or otherwise limit their use somewhat.

Naruto (the manga) kind of attempts this with both Naruto's (character) and Sasuke's transformations. Naruto's Kyuubi modes are out of control and were described as poisonous to himself, resulting in a shortened lifespan, while Sasuke's CS2 would bear the danger of loosing himself to Orochimaru's influence... yet both of these are also retconned away. Sasuke never suffers from any mind alteration (at least it is never mentioned) and frees himself from Orochimaru after killing him... and Naruto turns out to be from the Uzumaki Clan who are known for their strong lifeforce and long lifespans... how convinient.

A lot of manga/anime, especially shonen, fall into these pitfalls... but I don't want to go on a tangent.

4/5

Chapter 233

So anyways... this explosion looked always really weird to me... sure it's better than the usual bland white boom we have and will see so often, but it's just so abnormal... like there is some kind of deeper meaning behind it.

And well it's kind of interesting and unexpected that Naruto straight up looses the battle here. But I guess every hero needs their "greatest failure" and for Naruto it's failing to stop Sasuke from leaving.

And here we have Sasuke... looking sad in the rain... kneeling over Naruto, remembering how they used to hold hands... Sasuke realizes his deeping feelings for Naruto and just cannot bring himself to harm him any further...

2/5

6

u/Dionysus24779 Feb 21 '16 edited Sep 27 '21

Part 2 of 4

Chapter 234

Sasuke having yet another flashback to everything... I'll let it pass, because it's still kind of a nice scene with him slowly walking away while remembering all these things he is throwing away now. It has some kind of finality to it... though it does drag down the pacing a bit.

Also... I feel kind of stupid now. Last volume I went into detail about how Sasuke makes his own part and how it's actually an interesting thing and here Sasuke just spells it out for us... I swear I did not even remember this. (I usually only read the volume needed for next time).

Though it is funny how Sasuke says he wants to forge his own path and then follows Orochimaru, though I guess he always planned to just use and eventually dispose of Orochimaru once the time is right.

Otherwise it might be unintentional, but this desire of Sasuke to defy Itachi... maybe that could be a subtle influence in Sasuke's decision to crush Konoha much later on. But I guess not really.

Oh also Zetsu makes his first appearance, neat. I remember when he used to be a real mystery with tons of fan theories floating around about who he could be.

Also Zetsu... why not stop being lazy for a second and snatch Naruto while he's unconscious? I'm sure Zetsu could've done it before Kakashi arrives and it would've been the perfect opportunity.

Also this kind of proves what I said earlier about Tsunade's recklessness about sending Naruto out there... Akatsuki was in fact watching and if it would've been anyone but lazy Zetsu or maybe Itachi... Naruto could've been captured right then and there.

3/5

Chapter 235

Okay... here we go... the chapter I was holding out for... the one that really downgrades this whole arc and establishes that pretty much no good guy will ever die, with very few exceptions. (there're always a few exceptions)

So let me try to explain why I think that both Neji and Chouji should've died here...

And I've mentioned in the Gaara vs. Lee fight, the death of a character can lead to brilliant and varied opportunities to develop other characters while preserving the impact the now dead character had.

Let's try to imagine how different character's could've reacted to the death of these two:

Shikamaru would have to live with the fact that on his very first mission, under his own leadership, two people died, one of them being his best friend and member of his student team, the other being one of the most promising youths of Konoha. It would've left him wrecked... he might have seriously quit being a Ninja or he would've taken it to heart, learn from it, maybe it would've been a wake-up call, take everything more serious now, train hard, and swear that it will never happen again, turning him into a badass Ninja. I know they kind of go into this direction with him but it all gets cheapened by the fact that in the end it had no consequences.

Next Tsunade... Tsunade knew the team she had Shikamaru assemble would've been a Suicide Squad that was insufficient for a mission of this level. She even admitted to Kakashi how she just met the bare minimum in required assistance to help out and she wanted to send Kakashi on a different mission instead of helping... well both Chouji and Neji would've died and she would have to live with the knowledge that she send two young Genin to their death. One, once again, being one of the most promising youths of Konoha, while the other was a member of one of the noble families of Konoha, which could lead to strained relationships inside the village. Maybe Tsunade could've regretting not doing enough to make sure this mission is a success, maybe she realizes that she could've done more, maybe she would now understand that she cannot gamble with the life's of others...

Naruto would also be greatly affected. Now the person he tried so hard to save is indirectly responsible for the death of two of his comrades. His resolve to get Sasuke back and not let their sacrifice be in vain could've been so much more powerful and meaningful. Naruto failed to stop Sasuke after almost every member of his team offered to delay an enemy just so he could pursue his boycrush, and he failed... and two people died...

Hinata who so far was rather intimidated by Neji, might have realized that even someone as strong as Neji can be beaten... it could've motivated her to really think about herself and what Neji told her and maybe take this whole Ninja business much more serious and become a badass Kunoichi.

Tenten... er... she... might have lost a love interest? I dunno, but it would've been more than she actually got from Kishi, like ever. And I know it's a really easy and lazy approach to just make Tenten a love interest of Neji, but it's still better than being a token female.

Lee (assuming he lives) would've lost his personal Nr 1. rival, the person he dreamed about surpassing, the person who's acknowledgement he strifed for.

Gai, while probably not as affected as if Lee would've died, might still be broken over the fact that one of his students died...

The Hyuuga Clan itself, while Hiashi didn't have the best relationship to Neji he did in the end acknowledge Neji's strength, and with Tsunade sending Neji on a suicide mission without much support... it could make Hiashi think twice before he sends one of his daughters on a mission again.

Ino might've regretted not being nice enough to Chouji, though in retrospect Ino was surprisingly nice to him.

And finally Sasuke... his redemption and atonement wouldn't be nearly as easy when his actions caused two people to die and he basically spitting on their sacrifice.

And further... honestly, both Chouji and Neji were done. Their arcs were complete. Chouji proved himself to be far more powerful than anyone but Shikamaru imagined him to be, and he proved his fierce loyalty to his friends. He revealed the secret ultimate technique of his clan and he went out on a real high note. Neji showed that he grew beyond what we have initially seen against Naruto. Even Hiashi was impressed that Neji mastered the 64-strike technique and now he doubles down ith a 128 technique. Neji also learned to accept Naruto's idealism, he forgave the main family for what they did to his father and during the whole Save-Sasuke-Arc he proved to be the true MVP by far.

Post-TS both of them were pretty much reduced to background filler since the story focuses so much on Naruto and Sasuke. Both of Chouji and Neji could've been put on the same level as Haku or Kimimaro, both of which were also praised to be incredibly talented geniuses with tons of potential that they never got to expand on. People always wondered how powerful a healthy Kimimaro or Haku in their prime would be... Neji could've been another name in that list. And it would've been a better fate than just being background filler.

Though I guess one can justify why Chouji and Neji survived. Neji managed to save his vital organs and with help being right around the corner they may have managed to stabilize him and get him proper treatment. As for Chouji... since the red pill is said to kill its user the Akimichi probably only ever used it in extreme emergencies, situations in which immediate medical assistance might not have been possible. Chouji might be the first Akimichi ever who took the pill and then had the medical assistance to struggle through the side effects.

So it may be justifiable, but it is still very unsatisfying.

Speaking of medical Ninjutsu though... it's nice how we see some "real" medical jutsu being used here, instead of just seeing the same old boring green light we've seen in countless manga/anime. (color might vary but very often healing is done with glowing hands)

Oh well...

1/5

Overall: 2.4/5

Questions

When considering Naruto and Sasuke's pasts, is it better to have loved and have lost than to have never loved at all?

It's worse to have lost loved ones, but never having some in the first place is a different kind of bad.

Knowing there is such a large gap between himself and Itachi, was it smart to leave Naruto alive instead of obtaining the Mangekyo? Is he underestimating his brother in doing so (disregarding that Itachi will go easy on him)?

Well Sasuke would've lost in a serious combat and was literally up against a wall against Itachi... if it wasn't for Itachi's illness and his plan to be killed here Sasuke would've failed... though if Sasuke had gained his Mangekyou here and mastered it to a degree that he's able to use his own Suasnoo... it would've helped a lot.

Give your opinions on Shikaku's parenting (in this volume alone, not the future ones).

He's pretty right, one should learn from mistakes instead of throwing the towel at your first failure. And yeah if Shikamaru is in charge at least he is in control over how the mission plays out. Another Ninja might do a worse job.

→ More replies (4)

6

u/[deleted] Feb 21 '16

  1. I think Saskue definitely has a point. At this point, Naruto has never really directly known the love of a parent, and he compensates with pranks to gain attention. Saskue on the other hand, lost everything, and had to witness it. Everything and one he loved, gone. That's a whole different kind of pain. But I still think Naruto had it worse, as he was totally isolated and had no one, except for Iruka and Sorutobi. Even then, they were distant, and never really grew close to Naruto until later (Iruka grew closer to Naruto, the 3rd Hokage never directly acknowledged Naruto during his life). Being completely and totally alone, while Saskue was admired despite similar circumstances, would certainly make me boil with rage.

  2. There's really no disadvantage to obtaining the Mangekyo Sharingan. Saskue knows he has no chance against Itachi at this current point, and that's why he's leaving the Leaf for Orochimaru - to get even stronger. So there's no way he'd go up against Itachi anytime soon. That pummeling served as a wake-up call. I think Saskue just couldn't bring himself to kill his only friend. Naruto was the only person who understood him, as Saskue acknowledges after their final fight, and that's why he wanted to kill Naruto, because he felt that connection made him weak, despite craving it.

  3. In this volume, Shikaku does exactly what Shikamru needed, but didn't want to, hear. Shikamaru needed to get over the fact that he failed, because constantly beating himself up doesn't help anyone. I think this makes Shikaku a great parent, despite appearing like a dick.

Overall, I think this was one of the best fights of the series. The tension and build up were great, and the feeling of loss strung so high because these were two very hurt characters trying to fill a hole in their hearts. I'm glad Kishi decided to have a rematch as the final battle of both Part 1 and Part 2.

2

u/MisterPhalange Feb 21 '16

1: I personally feel that it's harder to be loved and then lose that love, so I'll agree with Sasuke on that point.

3: He did the right thing by giving Shikamaru that speech. Although it was a bit tough, Shikamaru needed to hear it.

1

u/Grif2718 Feb 21 '16

  1. Considering their pasts I would say Naruto's was worse not because he didn't have parents but because everyone else hated him (and from his perspective, for no reason). Ignoring that, Sasuke's is worse because he went from having his extended family in his life everyday to all of that suddenly disappearing with no one to fill the void

  2. My first gut feeling was it would be better to get the Mangekyo, but it might be better to become strong without the Sharingan at all. If Sasuke masters a wide variety of jutsu, which Orochimaru knows, then he can win against many different opponents who may have counters to the Sharingan. Sasuke could also develop counter-jutsu for the Sharingan because he knows Itachi uses it a lot.

  3. He knows his son is a smart, reasonable and mature kid so he doesn't sugar coat anything for him and tells him what he needs to hear. He knows what Shikamaru can handle and is helping him become the best ninja he can be.